Sega - 15 years later

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jon
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby jon » April 3rd, 2016, 3:05 pm

It could have been any game, the reason I bring it up is because the Saturn couldn't port it. The Saturn couldn't even do proper 3d. I mean, c'mon, the Saturn was so weak that Sega couldn't even do a 3d Sonic game for it. And that's the point I brought up earlier in this thread. The design sucked. And I don't think it's a stretch to think Sega could have had those Model 2 games ready for launch if the Saturn was better designed.

JWK
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby JWK » April 3rd, 2016, 3:25 pm

A couple of thoughts on some of the points made here.

The notion that Sega could have made more money had they held onto the Genesis for a couple years longer is a little flawed, in my opinion. Sega had a habit of releasing some of their consoles at an interim. It was technically superior to the NES when it dropped in 1989, and meant to compete with the NES, but technically inferior to the SNES when *it* dropped in 1991. With a two year head start, quality games, and an image of being the "mature" console (blood in MK and sports games) a sales win should have been a gimme. Unfortunately for Sega, no one could have predicted how good the line-up from Nintendo, Capcom, Konami, Natsume, Square and Enix was going to be for the Super Nintendo. Everyone talks about how close the 16 bit race wars were, but it really wasn't if you look at it. The SNES won by almost 10 million consoles sold and had a much higher attachment rate, leading to more sales in a much shorter time than the Genesis.

But even that is missing the point. Sega DID hold onto the Genesis for as long as they possibly could. It was their most successful console and they weren't going to let it go out gracefully. The add-ons were meant to keep the ancient Genesis hardware alive. I've already expressed my affinity for the remarkably underrated Sega CD library. The 32X was an absolute dud. So they did try to cling to the Genesis. But they lost consumer trust in the process. Hardcore Sega fans may have stuck with the company after the 4th generation, but everyone else saw a company who would release expensive console add-ons and then abandon them quickly.

Saturn and Dreamcast? Sega doggedly stuck to their guns that lovers of their ST-V and Naomi arcade boards would buy their home consoles. They didn't. Well, perhaps that's not fair. Some did, but the vast majority of console gamers had moved on from the arcade entirely. By the mid 90s, console gaming was being defined by long adventures like Zelda; games that specifically couldn't be done in the arcade and justified expensive hardware and software purchases. By 1997, Final Fantasy VII changed North America. For good. They accepted what Japanese gamers had been fanatical over since the 8 bit era and the NTSC region officially went RPG crazy. Two years later, Sega released the Dreamcast and, with its focus on arcade ports, ensured that it wouldn't sell well in NA or its native Japan. North America made RPGs huge sellers all the way through the 7th generation; several years after the Dreamcast was already dead. Sega just didn't understand what consumers wanted. Luckily, theirs absolutely a place for arcade-type experiences (Super Monkey Ball, F-Zero GX) and action/adventure games (Yakuza) on the consoles that lasted.

One last thought. I've heard the Critic and others echo the thought that Sega gave up "because they couldn't be #1." The reality is, Sega was never number one in any generation and gave up when their console business model had failed to the point where those with skin in the game pulled the plug. Sega had been losing millions for the better part of the 90s and the Dreamcast was simply the final straw to make them say "enough is enough." Honestly, with how much money they hemorrhaged during their darkest times, we are lucky they decided to stay as a third party developer. They make great games.

jon
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby jon » April 3rd, 2016, 6:02 pm

I vehemently disagree with just about every point "JWK" raised and feel it contains certain inaccuracies. The notion that since Sega had a 2 year head start over the SNES that it should have won that generation easily I feel is absurd. We're talking about Nintendo. They had a massive fan base and huge money behind them. I think it's almost a miracle that the Genesis was neck and neck with the SNES for the first few years of the 90's. And this whole thing about RPG's is just ridiculous. I've proven that RPG's aren't the determining factor in what console is more successful. Most of it has to do with sports games and platformers. Now, I know that isn't what a lot of RPG fans want to hear. It's not the sexy answer, but it's true. You have to take away your personal feelings and look at the facts. The facts are, the Saturn had a very poor sports lineup in 1995-1996. If I recall, they didn't even have an American football game until 1996, just ridiculous. And of course, there was no 3d Sonic, which was devastating. Also, a huge reason the Dreamcast failed is that it didn't have a DVD player, which the PS2 did. Also, Sega had a bad reputation by that point. I think it has nothing to do with the arcade minded game library. An enormous factor was EA sports barely supporting the Saturn and not supporting the Dreamcast whatsoever.

SilveryFire
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby SilveryFire » April 3rd, 2016, 7:34 pm

JWK wrote:A couple of thoughts on some of the points made here.

The notion that Sega could have made more money had they held onto the Genesis for a couple years longer is a little flawed, in my opinion. Sega had a habit of releasing some of their consoles at an interim. It was technically superior to the NES when it dropped in 1989, and meant to compete with the NES, but technically inferior to the SNES when *it* dropped in 1991.

Don't people ever get tired of spouting this garbage? The Snes was not technically superior to the Genesis. It had more colors and a bigger color palette. That's it.

jon
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby jon » April 3rd, 2016, 9:30 pm

I agree with "SilveryFire". The SNES is so unbelievably overrated and it really irks me. The system could barely handle a couple sprites on screen at once. It was absolutely terrible at sports games, action games, shmups. I'm a fan of Sega and they excelled in those genres. Another thing is this. The SNES was released in late 1991 in the United States and in my opinion was obsolete the day it came out. I was at the very least expecting a whole bunch of awesome action games and sports games (which the NES excelled at), and was incredibly disappointed. I remember going to my friend's house and he had Super Mario Kart and The Simpsons game, and they both royally blowed. I'd played awesome Genesis games and arcade games and it was just astounding how pathetic the SNES was. I mean, really, 5 sprites is too much to ask? The Genesis was way better than the SNES, absolutely no question about it. I can't believe the SNES is held in such high regard, me and other like minded friends thought it was terrible. Besides Super Mario All Stars and Street Fighter 2, maybe I'll throw in NBA Jam, the system was a complete slap in the face to anyone that appreciated fast paced action games like those found on the Genesis and at the arcades. Fortunately, the Sega not only had the Genesis but an incredible arcade lineup on the Model 2. To sum up my points, the SNES had sucked at life half of all video game genres. And those just so happened to be my favorite genres. Therefore, it's at the very least ridiculously overrated.

DevMac10
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby DevMac10 » April 4th, 2016, 6:21 pm

jon wrote:the system was a complete slap in the face to anyone that appreciated fast paced action games like those found on the Genesis and at the arcades. Fortunately, the Sega not only had the Genesis but an incredible arcade lineup on the Model 2. To sum up my points, the SNES had sucked at life half of all video game genres. And those just so happened to be my favorite genres. Therefore, it's at the very least ridiculously overrated.


Honestly, you should go for a PC Engine (TG16) if you want that kind of power.

matmico399
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby matmico399 » April 4th, 2016, 9:11 pm

I am no expert by any means. And everyone has their own opinion. But when it comes down to Genesis vs SNES I much preferred the Genesis as it had more of the types of games I enjoyed. I think that is what it boils down to. I have a SNES and enjoy it very much now, but I enjoy it 20% of the time I play my Genesis. It just comes down to the games.

matmico399
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby matmico399 » April 4th, 2016, 10:45 pm

Speaking of the Saturn and Dreamcast (I own both) The Saturn was a big disappointment. Severely underpowered and the best games are super expensive. Even back in the day it was a failure. It was a rush job to say the least. The Dreamcast on the other hand is a phenominal system. If it had the third party support that the PS2 had this might be my fave console ever! I just cannot get over how good of a console the Dreamcast is! I can understand peeps disdain for Sega after abandoning their systems to move on to another. I was one of them back in the day upgrading to a Sega CD and Sega 32X. I never trusted them again. But the Dreamcast is just awesome! FYI-I just re purchased a Sega CD to relive my youth. I had a lot of fun with that system. But I couldn't give a crap about getting a 32X again.

JWK
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Joined: April 30th, 2015, 2:27 pm

Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby JWK » April 4th, 2016, 11:56 pm

SilveryFire wrote:
Don't people ever get tired of spouting this garbage? The Snes was not technically superior to the Genesis. It had more colors and a bigger color palette. That's it.


True; the SNES massacred the Genesis by having about 8 times as many colors and 5 times as many simultaneous colors on screen at once. Add to that bigger sprites, transparency effects that didn't have to resort to dithering (unlike the Genesis, which had no transparency capabilities), scaling and rotation of a single background at 60 frames per second (mode 7), 32 sprites per scanline (vs 20 max on Genesis) and 8 channel digital audio. In short, the capabilities of the Super Nintendo is why games looked and sounded better on the SNES. So... yeah. It was technologically superior to the Genesis.

But I understand the Genesis had this thing called blast processing. It was great for commercials. And for parroting 25 years after the fact by VGC forum members.

jon
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Joined: April 9th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby jon » April 5th, 2016, 12:36 am

I like to think that I've lightened up a little bit over the years, but this really irritates me. This is a thread about Sega, not touting how much better the SNES was. And by the way, it sucks. It sucks if you like action games, sports games, shmups, and just generally fast, intense gameplay. It had a slow processor, and in layman's terms couldn't do jack. It's unfathomably overrated, to the point where it's attained near mythical status. But it has nothing to offer a lot of video game fans, I'd say close to half. Like I said, its library sucked at like half of all video game genres. Now I'm sorry I wasn't drawing in my notebook while everyone was playing basketball at school, I like my games fast, with explosions, and carnage, not some system that could barely handle a couple sprites and that the word fast evidently didn't apply to. It's got nothing to offer anyone with any sort of aggression. Its for softies.


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