Sega - 15 years later

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Sut
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Sut » April 5th, 2016, 2:47 am

I think some of the posts here is what made the 16-bit war the most fascinating. The SNES had more colours and more graphical tricks but it just couldn't throw sprites around like the Genesis could. There was a clear line in the sand if you wanted fast paced arcade games and sports titles you went Sega. RPG's and unique Mode 7 you went Nintendo.

The Genesis couldn't do Mario Kart or Pilot Wings, but the SNES couldn't do Streets of Rage 2 or Alien Soldier.

Was the Saturn underpowered ? Or did Sega just not play to it's strengths ? Looking on YouTube etc despite it being labelled a failure most hardcore gamers are still enthused by it years later probably more so than the PS1.

Hardcore Sadism
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Hardcore Sadism » April 5th, 2016, 3:03 am

SEGA could have lasted longer if they ditched add-on's from the get-go after Sega CD Model One. That, and not have the Saturn be a PITA to develop for.

SilveryFire
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby SilveryFire » April 5th, 2016, 4:57 am

JWK wrote:
SilveryFire wrote:
Don't people ever get tired of spouting this garbage? The Snes was not technically superior to the Genesis. It had more colors and a bigger color palette. That's it.


True; the SNES massacred the Genesis by having about 8 times as many colors and 5 times as many simultaneous colors on screen at once. Add to that bigger sprites, transparency effects that didn't have to resort to dithering (unlike the Genesis, which had no transparency capabilities), scaling and rotation of a single background at 60 frames per second (mode 7), 32 sprites per scanline (vs 20 max on Genesis) and 8 channel digital audio. In short, the capabilities of the Super Nintendo is why games looked and sounded better on the SNES. So... yeah. It was technologically superior to the Genesis.

But I understand the Genesis had this thing called blast processing. It was great for commercials. And for parroting 25 years after the fact by VGC forum members.

Doesn't that fanboyism get tired? It ain't 93, ya know. The games are out there to judge for your own ears and eyeballs. Because everything was so clear on Snes with that poor resolution and smaller screen to maneuver around? Spinning and zooming background is just graphical trickery, not true scaling and rotation like you seen in arcades and later systems.

Bigger sprites? Seriously dude, you're living in the past. Are we going to compare the size of bosses and idle animations too?

Sound is like art, it's subjective to ears. You can't name one game on the Snes that even compares to a soundtrack like Adventures of Batman and Robin or Streets of Rage. While Snes has fantastic soundtracks like Actraiser and Castlevania 4.

Who mentioned blast processing? Everyone knows that was bogus. Weak ammunition ya got there, man. Let's just forget the slow cpu that required an endless barrage of co-processors and "fx" chips? If Sega would have just had the color palette. Or if Nintendo would have just thrown the 68000 cpu in there, instead of being stubborn.

But they didn't. Both companies made idiotic decisions. Both systems were flawed. At least there was a choice. If Nintendo had its way, they'd still be running a monopoly.

Sut
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Sut » April 5th, 2016, 7:05 am

SilveryFire wrote:Or if Nintendo would have just thrown the 68000 cpu in there, instead of being stubborn


Yes that was a strange decision especially considering the Amiga and Atari ST 16-bit computers from 1985 were using the 68000 so I can't see cost being an issue.

It gave Sega an angle with speed and slowdown which to be fair they fully capitalised on.

Sut
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Sut » April 5th, 2016, 7:17 am

jon wrote:I don't know why you're knocking Virtua Striker, "SilveryFire". You seem so high on Worldwide Soccer '97, but that game resembles Virtua Striker and was probably made by the same people. Also, the first soccer game released for the Saturn in North America, International Victory goal, looks shockingly pathetic compared to Virtua Striker which was released a year earlier, with players made of 2d sprites. What kind of message does that send your consumer base that the arcade games are so much better than the console games? When you're playing games on the Model 2, and then have to settle for sprites on the Saturn? Granted, Worldwide Soccer '97 had 3d players, but that game was released in mid October 1996. By that time it was game over, the Saturn was finished. The PS1 by that time had outsold it by what most likely is an astounding number, and the N64 had been out since September. So add up all of those facts, and Worldwide Soccer '97 was hardly a game changing release. What I'm saying with Virtua Striker is that if released at launch (obviously the Saturn couldn't handle it so it's all hypothetical) it could have made a huge splash and established the Saturn as a 3d powerhouse, along with all the other Model 2 games. All those Model 2 games ended up either getting inferior ports, ported too late, or not even showed up on the Saturn, lol.


Did you ever try World League Soccer '98 Jon ? You point still stands that it is far too late to have an impact but that game was fully polygonal in the Saturns high res mode. Fairly impressive for the system and it plays well for its era once you suss out the mechanics.

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scotland
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby scotland » April 5th, 2016, 10:02 am

I don't hear anyone making the case that Sega could have survived to 2016. Let me give it a go then.

Remember that in 1998, despite all these issues with the Sega CD, 32x, Saturn, etc, Sega still felt like they could go on and compete against Sony and Nintendo with the Dreamcast.

There was a lot against them in 1998:
    * Sony co-invented DVD technology, and left Sega and Nintendo at a distinct disadvantage.
    * Sony made its own chips, where Sega had to buy all these.
    * Sega was looking forward to online mulitplayer, but it was premature.
    * Home PCs were becoming both commonplace and improving as game machines to the point where discussions about the death of consoles were being had. That may have also impacted Sega's decision to leave, thinking it might be the last console generation anyway.
    * The Sega brand was weak
    * Sega's financials were weak

What could have offset that? How about Toshiba?

Toshiba was also a co-inventor of DVD technology. Toshiba made its own chips. Toshiba name was solid and could have repaired some of the damage with retailers or maybe 3rd party software companies. Toshiba may have given them the resources to weather the years as the internet matured.

We don't know what Sega would have done in the 2000s, but I think there are enough gamers out there with enough disposable income to support four consoles.

So, if a company like Toshiba had come in and merged/bought/acquired Sega, maybe it would still be competitive. Maybe?

What do you think?

SilveryFire
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby SilveryFire » April 5th, 2016, 10:25 am

Nah, I don't see it. Sega's home console success was a flash in the pan. The time was right for someone to stand up to the arrogant bully Nintendo was and they just so happened to have a powerful 16-bit console.

You can thank Nintendo for their short success too. If they weren't sueing someone, they were making people believe they created the videogame. And that them, and only them, should have a successful console. Karma for ya.

Not to mention the Dreamcast and it's flaws. Starting with that disgustingly worthless controller that was designed with cheapness in mind. How do you expect to compete without a 2nd analog and less buttons than your previous console? The VMU was more money being thrown into a useless feature.

No way could they have afforded to roll out another console after Dreamcast. That thing barely had a life span of 2 years. The lack of EA and Madden would only put them deeper.

Sut
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Sut » April 5th, 2016, 11:31 am

Yes we did get a bit off topic there !

Much like a sports team I think it was just Sega's time. They made some bad decisions in the console market despite a good reputation for great games but previous mistakes could be covered by Sega's dominance in the arcades. Much like Nintendo could cover their console failings with handheld sales, Sega could cover theirs with arcade sales.

Sega was the king in the arcades from around the mid 80's to the mid 90's a good 10 year period of high performing, high profit arcade cabs. Unfortunately for Sega the bottom started falling out of the arcade scene at the same time as it's reputation took a hit in the console market Sega had lost it's 'cool'.

Without the arcades as a back up. Sega was done.

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scotland
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby scotland » April 5th, 2016, 12:21 pm

I had not thought of the arcade income, but that's a point Sut. However, when they created Sonic in 1991, I think they already were moving toward leaving the arcade source material behind. How much revenue were they getting from the arcades even by 1991?

Sega's success was not a flash in the pan. Sega made its first arcade game in the mid 1960s, their first arcade video game around 1980, and went on to create many successful arcade machines, and several home video consoles. They were a player in the arcade business for 35 years. In business, that's a long time. Its like saying Pontiac was a flash in the pan.

Just looking at video games, Sega was involved for 20 years, which as long as Sony has been, and longer than Microsoft. If this were the last Xbox or Playstation, would all their success be a flash in a pan? No. They would be considered dynasties.

Many consoles have shortcomings and go on to be successful. What did Sega need to be successful post-Dreamcast. Money and relationships, and they ran out of both. How could they have gotten that back? A partner? Motion controllers in 1998? Good ideas would help too, so some hot property like Gunpei Yoko after being ousted by Nintendo? (I say like Gunpei Yoko, as I know he died in 1997, but if Sega had hired him after leaving Nintendo, maybe he would not killed in a roadside accident or maybe there were other hot game designers at the time).

Sut
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Re: Sega - 15 years later

Postby Sut » April 5th, 2016, 12:59 pm

scotland wrote:I had not thought of the arcade income, but that's a point Sut. However, when they created Sonic in 1991, I think they already were moving toward leaving the arcade source material behind. How much revenue were they getting from the arcades even by 1991?


I would have to check sources but I believe Daytona was the biggest selling arcade game of all time and Virtua Fighter was also hot property.

What I also find somewhat bemusing is Sega's post Dreamcast strategy. Contrary to popular belief Sega had released some fantastic games since the Dreamcast.
Panzer Dragoon Orta, OutRun 2 and my current game of the month Shinobi but somehow they haven't managed to get themselves to Activision or EA's level.

Maybe a partnership with a major, experienced third party publisher but using Sega branding would have been a better strategy than staying as hardware company because it's obvious Sega have management and strategic issues.


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