Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

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velcrozombie
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby velcrozombie » July 5th, 2016, 10:52 am

While I've disagreed with Sonicx9 about this point in the past, he is right about Mighty No. 9. Comcept chose to release the game on ELEVEN separate platforms (including Linux and the Nvidia Shield Portable) simultaneously and, in the process, spread themselves thin in both time and financial resources; as a result, the game they released was ugly (early demos looked much closer to the designs than the finished product) and unpolished, had a messy launch where many Kickstarter backers were unable to access the copy of their game and there is no announced launch date for half the platforms they were targeting. Contrast that with Shovel Knight, another Kickstarter game in a similar style that received around one-fourth of the money Mighty No. 9 did. Yacht Club (made up of former members of Wayforward) made a game that looks and plays great and launched it on only three platforms to start, then expanded it to additional platforms as sales rose - all the while adding free content to an already polished, satisfying game.

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Hardcore Sadism
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby Hardcore Sadism » July 5th, 2016, 11:48 pm

Let's just leave it at, Inafune hired a radical politician (dare I say "feminist") to run the business into the ground, she outright refused refunds and Inafune himself denied any responsibility until Dina was fired.

Nothing could have been done to save this if all of them weren't complete daft industry rejects.

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Shapur
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby Shapur » July 8th, 2016, 4:00 am

I'm not sure why you always say PC/PS4/Xbox One/Wii U. The Wii U is in a whole 'nother category. If you've pared down the assets enough to run on the Wii U, you can basically run them on the Xbox 360/PS3, Both of those systems have like 7 times the install base.

Sonicx9
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby Sonicx9 » July 14th, 2016, 10:10 pm

scotland wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:You must be living under a rock, because if you have been following this well known YouTuber


You complain when no one responds to your topics, and then call them names when they do. What's going to come of that?



I am sorry about that I will say it better in the future.

Shapur wrote:I'm not sure why you always say PC/PS4/Xbox One/Wii U. The Wii U is in a whole 'nother category. If you've pared down the assets enough to run on the Wii U, you can basically run them on the Xbox 360/PS3, Both of those systems have like 7 times the install base.


I know that the Wii U is not on par with the say PC/PS4/Xbox One, but if you look at games that are exclusive like Mario Kart 8, Bayonetta 2, Xenoblade Chronicles X: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... ronicles-x, and Splatoon are all examples of games that would never run properly on the Xbox 360/PS3/PS Vita/3DS because they take full advantage of the slightly more powerful Wii U hardware. And Multi-platform games made with a Higher Common Denominator in mind such as Zelda: Breath of the Wild: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... -the-limit and Yooka-Laylee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1gxLvbX3Ow look very technologically impressive despite the Wii U hardware limitations do look like games that would never run on the Xbox 360/PS3/PS Vita/3DS as the game quality would suffer in terms of graphics/game play scope, etc.

As for specs here is proof that the Wii U can do more then the PS3/Xbox 360 in raw hardware

GPU Gflops the most important part of the hardware. The Wii U GPU has 352 Gflops of power which is over 100 flops more than the Xbox 360 and/or the PS3 GPU which both consoles GPU have around 240 Gflops and 228.8 respectively. (note: this source is from this website: http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/) also the Wii U has 1 GB dedicated for game use where in comparison. Both the Xbox 360 and PS3 have around 512 MB GDDR3 @ 700 MHz shared between CPU & GPU 10 MB EDRAM GPU frame buffer memory and 256 MB XDR @ 3.2 GHz 256 MB GDDR3 @ 700 MHz respectively. That is why certain exclusives/Multi-platform games made with a Higher Common Denominator in mind are not on the Xbox 360/PS3/PS Vita/3DS it is because of the extra GPU Gflops/Ram helps the games out in terms of quality.

Now let’s get to some information on why Xbox 360/PS3/PS Vita/3DS/Mobile versions have held back the potential of the newer/more powerful consoles/PC.

If you noticed on this website for Dave the Video Game Critic, as well as Rich of ReviewTechUSA, both have been negatively critical of the PS4/Xbox One/Wii U in terms of offering proper next gen games and I will explain in the next few paragraphs with actually facts.

Games such as Watch Dogs/Destiny: http://gamingbolt.com/bungie-explains-w ... d-xbox-one and https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame ... that/Thief 2014/Titanfall/Mighty No. 9/The Evil Within/ Murdered: Soul Suspect, etc where all hyped to be great games. But because the developers where making many of these games for some of the last-gen consoles, and or handhelds, etc. The quality was held back and the reception of these games where not as good as they should be. And the graphics of all of these games got downgraded looking/running worse then what early demos of the games showed us prior to coming out. Plus some of them had frame rate caps to 30FPS to work well with weaker hardware and so forth which I will explain in the next few paragraphs.

Speaking of Frame Rate Cap why are PS4/Xbox One games such as Watch Dogs/Destiny/Thief 2014/ The Evil Within/Alien: Isolation/Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan/Rise of the Tomb Raider, etc, are all cap at 30FPS, I know? To work well with the weaker consoles to make the games consistent thanks to Console parity of the weaker hardware/stronger hardware. Thankfully games like Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 and Watch Dogs 2 are next gen/PC only, but the damage is already done for the first game.

Also games such as the many Telltale games: https://youtu.be/-U2700rOms4?t=7m20s have bugs/frame rate issues/bad lip syncing/texture pop in, etc because of releasing the games on last-gen/handhelds/and Mobile spreading themselves thin and hurting some of the quality of the games.

One thing I hate about last-gen/handheld versions of games is it can make your games have bad bugs/glitches at launch: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015- ... -of-issues along with your PC port being a port of the last-gen versions instead of the next-gen versions like it should be for games such as Dead Or Alive 5 Last Round http://www.pcinvasion.com/dead-or-alive ... s4-effects and Pro Evolution Soccer 2016 http://www.pcgamer.com/pes-2016s-seemin ... ts-a-demo/. Some of these where fault of the cross-gen spread.

Games like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5 was a bad game, that was only made worse because of the last gen versions hurting the game even further. It is not like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 or 4 on PS1 or Tony Hawk's Pro Skater Project 8/Proving Ground on PS2 which where different water down games from the next-gen versions at the time period.

One thing I can not stand is that games to not have certain features/content because of Console parity. Look at Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan not having local Multiplayer because of the PS3/Xbox 360 versions. Games like Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is incomplete: http://gamingbolt.com/metal-gear-solid- ... -3-as-well because partly of the PS3/Xbox 360 versions in combination of the Konami forcing Kojima to split Phantom Pain/Ground Zeroes in separate games when they where supposed to be one title, and load times that should not be long like that: https://youtu.be/PqaEChSBImg?t=12m25s. One game that could have been even better if they did not limit the true artistic potential of the game is Super Smash Bros. 2014 because they had to cut out the fan favorite Ice Climbers characters because of the 3DS versions: http://gamerant.com/super-smash-bros-wi ... mbers-cut/. Along with removing transformations for characters that once had them: http://gamerant.com/super-smash-bros-3d ... explained/ . Also having Olimar only have 3 Pikmin at time rather than 6 compared to Brawl: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Olimar_(SSBWU/3DS). And have King Dedede Side Special not have Waddle Dee come out like they are in Brawl.: https://youtu.be/7KhZHjvPiAI?t=4m5s Can you guess what ruined the new Smash Bros. and why the critic gave the Wii U version not as high as it should have been. It is because of the 3DS version hurting it. I mean the 8-player smash on Wii U with 8 Ice climbers on screen along with 8 Olimars with 6 Pikmin each on screen, and transformations for characters, and King Dedede Side Special with Waddle Dee popping out everywhere creating the ultimate Smash Bros experience!

Now let’s look at a recent example of being held back by weaker hardware. The recent Star Ocean: Integrity and Faithlessness has been criticized by reviewers/users having weak graphics: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/146575-s ... s/73782822 Frame rate issues: https://www.amazon.com/Star-Ocean-Integ ... eNumber=10 and barren areas and long loading times: http://www.gameinformer.com/games/star_ ... ormer.aspx Blame the PS3 for all of this. This has me worried for games like Persona 5, Tales of Berseria and especially Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night. Because do you want any of those games ending up on the same boat as Mighty No. 9 and Star Ocean: Integrity and Faithlessness? I think not!

But it is not all black and white in which there are exceptions to the rule when developers did not sacrifice the quality with cross-gen games. Look at the famous Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor where the main developers put 100% effort on PC/PS4/Xbox One because of the games famous Nemesis System was impossible to run on the Xbox 360/PS3. So they outsourced the last-gen port to a cheap shovel-ware developer Behaviour Interactive with awful graphics compared to 8th Gen/PC, terrible framerate, missing DLC, and worse of all the Nemesis System was castrated in comparison because of the bread and butter was the 8th Gen/PC versions. The big critical and commercial failure of the last-gen ports of Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor made WB games traumatized to the point that games such as Dying Light/Mad Max 2015/Mortal Kombat X where all canceled on last-gen for the right reasons, because the games where to ambitious for the under-powered hardware. And Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Game of the Year Edition was 8th Gen/PC only because of how much of a piece of garbage the Xbox 360/PS3 versions where in comparison to the 8th Gen/PC versions! Made me wish other companies where like WB Games in terms of giving us proper next-gen games.

Did you know that some of the critics highest scoring 8th Gen console games are Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze, Super Mario 3D World, Bayonetta 2, Mario Kart 8, Pikmin 3, Uncharted 4 A Thief's End, and Until Dawn is because they are proper Next-Gen games like they should be. Why games like The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt was critically acclaimed, it because the developers where smart making a game that uses the full potential of the PC/PS4/Xbox One like it was meant to be played.

I do not mean developers to outright give up on the last-gen/handhelds ports from the current gen/PC, but at this point, the only games that make sense to be on last-gen/handhelds are following below.:

Indie games that are either 2D sprite based games such as Shovel Knight/Level 22 etc and, or Indie games with low quality 3D graphics such as Goat Simulator/Minecraft stuff etc.

Kid games such as the many Toys-to-life games such as Skylanders/Disney Infinity and Lego games

Shovelware from small companies such as Little Orbit

2D sprite based games from non-indie publishers/developers like the BlazBlue series and Anime Fighters such as Nitroplus Blasterz and Dengeki Bunko: Fighting Climax Ignition

Retro compilations such Mega Man Legacy Collection

Select Remasters of select 6th Gen games such as Resident Evil Remake/Zero and Odin Sphere Leifthrasir

Everything else that is High Profile/Semi High Profile games at this point should be Next Gen or die at this point of time.

I am sorry for a long response/long post, but it was the only way people can finally see why cross-gen/Handheld ports have ruined the PC/PS4/Xbox One, and even the Wii U to a lesser degree in terms of the games graphics/scope artistic vision creativity, etc. I mean the current gen-consoles are under-powered and having trouble as it is in terms of hitting 1080P 60FPS/having the full creativity of their supposed next gen games, etc. But cross-gen/Handheld ports only add fuel to the fire!

Agree/Disagree, correct me, add stuff that I missed? Please let me know.

JWK
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby JWK » July 18th, 2016, 1:15 am

Sonicx9,

You've created a thread exactly like this one a while ago. I (among others) tried to educate you on the development process. You seem to have forgotten, so I will repeat myself. You seem to have this false notion that developers are creating the game simultaneously for 6 different systems. They don't. If a game ends up on, say, the PSVita, it's ported. Meaning it's primarily developed with the PS4 in mind and then down ported to the portable.

But of all things, to suggest that the failure of Mighty No. 9-- primarily a digital game, and not a technologically demanding one at that--is evidence that PS3/360/3DS/Vita are holding the PS4 back is laughable. It's a bad game because the team was unable to create a good one. It's buggy because the developers did what most devs do-- release a game buggy to save face after numerous delays so they can patch it later.

It's time to move on from this false narrative.

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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby Sonicx9 » July 18th, 2016, 10:52 am

JWK wrote:Yes. I have seen the videos. Rich from ReviewtechUSA is not an industry insider, a tech analyst not a game developer. He's a guy who shares his opinions about video games on YouTube. Nothing more, nothing less. If he's suggesting that downports of games created for PS4/X1/PC released on PS3/360 and Games created for PS4 then ported to Vita are holding the 8th gen back, he is wrong. Plain and simple.


JWK, here are things worth mentioning that I need to mention that I forgot to say.

Mighty No. 9 had 3 years of development time, so their is no excuse for bugs/glitches and problems like this.

And last but not least, many games these days that are multi-platform from the start like Telltale Games, the recent 2014 Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS, Mighty No. 9, etc. Often will be announced for the 8th Gen Consoles/PC alongside PS3/Xbox 360/PS Vita/3DS/Mobile versions. So when that happens, the developers have to make sure they make certain things consistent to work with weaker hardware such as graphic quality/features, etc. And one bad example of hardware parity is the recent 2014 Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS where they wanted the same roster, so things such as Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters, Olimar only have 3 Pikmin at time rather than 6 compared to Brawl, and ave King Dedede Side Special not have Waddle Dee come out like they are in Brawl. So it not only hurts the artistic vision/creativity, but hurts the true potential of a prop next-gen game. Heck even Masahiro Sakura admitted that he had no choice but to corn cut things out/change things because of the 3DS version hardware limitation. It is not far for the Wii U owners at all!

Now lets look at past examples of games made with the then highest common denominator tech in mind consoles/PC if weaker hardware can handle them at the time period. Can the SNES/Sega Genesis handle games like Castlevania: Symphony of the Nigh compared to the PS1/Sega Saturn. No way in hell that is going to work because the limited size of the SNES/Sega Genesis cartridges, along with the weaker hardware specs. It just wont work. Can the first Kingdom Hearts on PS2 run on the PS1. It would not because the PS1 CD-Rom are too small to fit such a large/graphically intense game like that properly to work in the first place along with being too under powered. Can Soulcalibur II on the Arcade/PS2/GameCube/Xbox run on the Game Boy Advance/N-Gage/Mobile phones, no. You will laugh at that because it is just not physically possible to begin with. Or when companies did try down ports like Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance. The GBA version was very gimped/different and water down, and had two be split in two separate games with the first half being Deadly Alliance and the second half being Tournament Edition.

Yes, I know the law of diminishing returns is very different today compared to back then as the PS4/Xbox One/ and the Wii U to a leisure extend are far smaller leaps then back then. So it is a far easier task to down port current-gen games to PS3/Xbox 360/PS Vita/3DS/Mobile device. So it may not be fare to compare from now compared to back then. But in the past companies mostly made true proper next gen titles from the get go. And where delivering them much faster compared to the now. It is just my opinion and that is it.

Also this video does a good job explaining that when you develop for the lowest common denominator you end up shafting more capable hardware.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0uzHJ8sHjg
Last edited by Sonicx9 on July 18th, 2016, 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JWK
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby JWK » July 18th, 2016, 2:18 pm

Yes. I have seen the videos. Rich from ReviewtechUSA is not an industry insider, a tech analyst not a game developer. He's a guy who shares his opinions about video games on YouTube. Nothing more, nothing less. If he's suggesting that downports of games created for PS4/X1/PC released on PS3/360 and Games created for PS4 then ported to Vita are holding the 8th gen back, he is wrong. Plain and simple.

Sonicx9
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby Sonicx9 » July 18th, 2016, 5:15 pm

JWK, I made a update respones above you because of the forums posting rules.

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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby ActRaiser » July 20th, 2016, 8:54 am

I know Titanfall which was a huge Xbox One next gen game had zero effect by having a 360 port.

The reason I know that is that is that's what the developers stated. A completely separate studio did the port. The Xbox One was the lead platform. The secondary studio did their best to replicate what it could.

Short of the Wii U example, in most cases the lead platform determines direction. And then you outsource the porting work to other studios. Based on the logic stated the SNES Doom was holding back the PC Doom. That's not how the real world operates.

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scotland
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Re: Looks like its time for Telltale/Select Indie/Japanese Dev games to give up on PS3/Xbox 360/3DS/PS Vita now!

Postby scotland » July 20th, 2016, 9:52 am

ActRaiser wrote:The reason I know that is that is that's what the developers stated. A completely separate studio did the port. The Xbox One was the lead platform. The secondary studio did their best to replicate what it could.


Thanks Actraiser. I am not in the biz, and maybe it varies by developer. I thought a game like Disney Infinity, with the recently shut down 300 person studio was only working on the one thing and did all the ports in house. My guess would be that doing all the versions in house would reveal economies in the development lifecycle, such as tooling play balance.

Of course, even if they do all the versions in house, that doesn't mean anyone cripples the modern version so a downport doesn't look inferior. That just doesn't make sense.


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