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360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 1:22 am
by JustLikeHeaven1
OK...so I haven't read most of the posts in this thread (at least not since the beginning), but I wanted to add to what feilong was saying.

He is absolutely correct in saying that while some people may not care for Game X, it is not necessarily a bad game.  While one could argue that how much you enjoy a game is merely an opinion, I believe that a good game is a good game...whether you like it or not.  I don't really like Halo 3, but you won't find me arguing that its not a good game.  I just don't care for it.  However, if I was a paid journalist reviewing the game I would be hard pressed to give it anything lower than a B+ (at the time of its release).

I think there is a huge difference in someone's opinion of a game, and how good the game actually is.  However, most people simply cannot admit that is the truth.   Bottom line is that there is a major difference between sloppy design and hating a game for an arbitrary reason.

*This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to sort of echo what feilong was saying...*

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 1:30 am
by Fragnox
[QUOTE=feilong80]But, when I say it is a very good game, I can do that and be objective because I measuring that against concrete things that they game has going for it. If this isn't true, than making games is completely and utterly guesswork every single time. In other words, I can use subjective adjectives and still be talking about objective factors. These factors aren't enough to make something great, but they can definitely make a game at least decent. Since I know Mario Galaxy fulfills a number of fairly concrete things one expects to find in a higher quality game, I can say with confidence that it is wrong to say it is mediocre.[/QUOTE]

You're throwing around a bunch of words here and I found it a little confusing...but let me just put it this way.

You said it has a great soundtrack.  I found the music annoying and Disney-like, not very video game-like.  The graphics are very good, especially for the Wii, but I'm sure there's a group of people out there who would complain because they're too cartoon-y.

See what I mean?  It's all subjective here.  And again, it is not wrong to say that I found it to be mediocre.  I am not saying that the game is factually mediocre.  Since I'm stating my opinion, it cannot be wrong.  I'm stating how much I enjoyed the game.  I got average enjoyment.  Making it mediocre in my opinion.

[QUOTE]What has happened in this forum over the course of the past 6 months or so is this: Steer has gotten everyone out of sorts, to the point that the opposite of what he wants has been accomplished: people are much more likely to dump on Wii here than ever before, which is mostly, in my opinion, out of spite for him. I entered the fray only because then what happens, as in this case, is that then the console gets ripped to shreds unfairly in everyone's rush to debunk Steer. I'm not defending Steer, we've had arguments and I can tell he thinks I am part of the "club" in this forum.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that sounds right...

[QUOTE]You are still entirely unconvincing on the point of Nintendo being "lazy" with their own titles. You again only bring up a couple of games out of the many they have released. Sure, it sounds like they've been lazy with Animal Crossing. But that does not equal the whole library. The reality is that they have managed to release iterations in about every major franchise, in addition to the original stuff, in just about two years. Compared to the Gamecube, that is almost miraculous.[/QUOTE]

First of all, on the "lazy" thing, I was saying they have a tendency to be lazy at some points.  Not just that the games weren't up-to-par, but they got lazy with some games.  Not all of them.  Just some.  But to be lazy enough to dump the soundtrack from the previous game onto it, with little to no remixing is just kind of unprofessional and unheard of.  It's not something I'd expect from Nintendo, however much I dislike them at the moment.

As for your remark about the Gamecube, I don't really appreciate it.  For all of the crap it gets, it was an awesome console.  I don't know all of the years for releases of the games, and I don't feel like looking them up right now, but the Gamecube got two Star Fox titles, two Zelda titles, two Metroid titles, a large number of Mario titles (if you count Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion, and all of the spin-offs), and pretty much one in every other franchise, although correct me if I'm wrong.  In addition to that, the console introduced two new, creative franchises.  Pikmin and Animal Crossing.  Not to mention there were two Pikmin games on the Gamecube.  The Wii has only had two years so far, so it's hard to compare since I'm not digging up release dates, but still -- the Gamecube has an impressive array of titles.  We haven't even heard news of a new Metroid game -- period -- yet, we've only had one Zelda (and only barely, since Twilight Princess is really just a Gamecube title ported to Wii at the last second), a few Marios, one Smash Bros, one Donkey Kong spin-off, one Animal Crossing, and an announcement for a new Pikmin (remind me if I missed anything, I'm sort of going off the top of my head).  Then you've got one new game that seems likely to turn to a franchise, No More Heroes.  No announcement of a new F-Zero, or Star Fox, or Kirby (which was supposed to be Kirby for the Gamecube and still has no news).

Not really miraculous if you ask me.

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 1:40 am
by JustLikeHeaven1
[QUOTE=steer]

JLH once wanted to exile me for sticking up for games, but had no problem with MIG (who I bear no animosity) for trashing games....if you are the wrong political party here, you risk isolation and enstrangment, but that is not the biggest risk in the world is it? I would rather be myself than to be liked.

[/QUOTE]

I never wanted you to leave because you stuck up for games...The problem was the way you went about doing it.  I think you have plenty of intelligent things to say and I appreciate the passion, but you bluntly attack those with differing opinions.  It can be very frustrating trying to express opinions to you.

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 5:06 am
by BanjoPickles1
I'm not sure if people dump on the Wii out of spite for Steer, Fei, or because they've shifted their opinions. I'm going to try to refrain from repeating myself that I love the Wii because I guess I just don't love it enough for some people. Hehe.

When Steer and I first got into these arguments, I honestly did think that he was Mig with a different name. The same insulting demeanor, the exact opposite viewpoint of Mig(OBVIOUSLY opposite), and just downright nasty in his approach. Mig went on-and-on about this site being so pro-Nintendo, while Steer complains that it's anti-Nintendo. For the longest time, I thought it was just some stupid little game played on us. Steer questioned why I once jumped on Mig for attacking Nintendo only to turn around and defend him later. The answer I gave is because I don't give a crap if you attack Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, or even friggin' Magnovox! I have a huge problem with people attacking opinions! If you want to disagree and debate then fine, but the insults are a bit pre-school for me. I jumped Mig for attacking PEOPLE, and then I turned around and jumped Steer for the same thing. In tastes, I lean more towards Steer(though I'm not as radical) but, as far as the way they both talk(type?) to people, I'll pass.

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 1:20 pm
by steer
Notice this banjo - I only get prickly when ppl jump on my opinions, are condecending toward my gaming, or judge certain consoles or games inconsistent with the courtesy they show 'the general public'.

Face it Nintendo products are a lightning rod for criricism, and if you state contrary opinions you are targeted.

Read the review feedback of Wii Music - a 'prememptive strike' of half a dozen posts baiting ppl here who had already expressed they had liked the game - by ppl who have no interest in it, and had not played it. Should we back down from that? Should we just take it? Should we be cowed?

In an environment such as that, the results are predictable, and they go something like this time and again :

1. Earnest game discussion

2. Inflammatory post by an agitator (exp. "'legitmate' consoles" and similar nonsense)

3. Someone challenges them, and things get heated

4. More moderate ppl gradually take sides, and ussualy denounce the responder, as they are closer to the agitator in terms of taste, if not method.

Just on a personal note, I bear you no hard feelings, but we are time and again opposed to each other. I will never judge the Wii or any other console by its weak and perceived weak offerings, most aimed at niches in the gaming market, and certainly never intended to be groundbreaking games. And I have suggested, and do again, if you wish to judge wii so, than apply it to all consoles, not just to wii. Support for all consoles vary greatly, exclusives vary greatly, and tastes vary greatly. I only ask for consistency, respect, and intellectual honesty. I apologize for my sarcasm, in the future, I will stifle it. (like edith)

Ppl can like Nintendo or not, I do not care, but they cannot deny the important role Nintendo has in the industry - and that is creative genius, depth of talent, and financial stability - the asset that makes their other assets possible.

So to me, it makes zero sense to 'penalize' the best their console has to offer on 'weak', little sister games (in general) that they should not control and have no reason to 'supress'

Who are they to tell ppl what to buy? Who are you? Who am I? The market decides, - a conservative principal - and they have done quite well in the market since they have entered it.

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 1:58 pm
by BanjoPickles1
To be fair, Steer, I have offered my share of criticisms to the other guys as well. I called Microsoft on their shoddy hardware, Sony for their arrogance and for overpricing their console. Actually, in my criticisms, I've been the kindest to Nintendo, which shows what system/company I prefer.

You and I see things differently. While you see it as them doing us a favor, I see it as nothing more than business and some companies stooping as low as they possibly can for my business. It's the same reason why garbage on the radio offends me, Steer. Is Nickelback doing me a favor by putting out music? No, they suck, they're polluting my ears, and they're convincing thousands of little kiddies that that is what good music sounds like! It just seems sort of odd that you would choose to defend Nintendo with jabs. I usually don't take jabs at people unless they attack me. Nobody is asking you to stop posting, but people(yourself included) are going to keep their opinions and the way they do things. This is not an anti-nintendo board. In fact, this site has a TON of people that love Nintendo but they choose to love other things as well. As I've said before, I just love games.


360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 3:03 pm
by bluemonkey1
"Notice this banjo - I only get prickly when ppl jump on my opinions, are condecending toward my gaming, or judge certain consoles or games inconsistent with the courtesy they show 'the general public'."

Is it April fools already?

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 3:37 pm
by Fragnox
[QUOTE=steer]So to me, it makes zero sense to 'penalize' the best their console has to offer on 'weak', little sister games (in general) that they should not control and have no reason to 'supress'[/QUOTE]

Why are you still hung up on this despite the fact that I've already said that's not what anyone's doing?

Shovelware is a problem because there's so much of it and so few good titles.  If there's a console with something that everyone considers to be the absolute best game ever, but EVERY OTHER GAME is absolute crap, would you say it's a great console and people are unfairly judging it because they're looking at the crap and not the one title?  If you did, you'd be crazy.  That's basically what we're doing with the Wii, although not to that extremity.  The problem is there's so much crap and not enough good games to make it worth it.  I mean, I consider the games I've bought for the Wii (except for NiGHTS and Sonic and the Secret Rings...heh, both Sega titles) to be decent/good, but most of them still bored me fairly quickly after I beat them.  Twilight Princess and Metroid Prime 3 are very good games, probably my favorite ones for Wii, but there's parts of both games that stop me from replaying them.

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 3:55 pm
by funky_muzic1
Are we still talking about Wii Sports?  I love Wii Sports and I still play it even after more than 2 years. 
I didn't really find Golf to be glitchy.  The putting can be difficult to get the hang of, but once you find the right motion it works like a charm. 
Oh, and Steer, my best score is a -8 on 9 holes!
Of course I haven't played Wii Sports Golf for a while since I got Tiger Woods '09.  This game is sweet.  I'm not sure if I like it better than Wii Sports Golf or not, but the sheer variety of courses makes it fun to play.  The control is great too.
I also agree that the Wii is the start of the new generation of gaming.  Motion-sensing, balance boards, pointer controls, and other more immersive input (and output) devices are the future of gaming!

360 is becoming a Wii wanna-be...

Posted: January 5th, 2009, 6:00 pm
by steer
Oh, and Steer, my best score is a -8 on 9 holes!
You are the man!

I have to ask, have you had any holes in one? I have been very close, but - not yet.

Also, in general anyone ever get a perfect game in bowling?

I have gotten 7 or 8 strikes in a row, but that was over two games. I  started a game with 6 or so once, but them lost it.

Fragnox - you are the extremity.

And Banjo - I almost feel sorry for you - why are you worried about what others listen to? Or play?