Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby VideoGameCritic » December 27th, 2015, 5:21 pm

I was reading some of the reviews of Episode VII and while they were overwhelmingly positive, a few critics took exception (and suffered the wrath of readers). I think these critics fell into a common trap that I see with video game reviewers. Sometimes they spend too much time psycho-analyzing and dissecting a movie that they miss the forest for the trees. Are there derivative elements? Sure, but the fun factor is still through the roof! Frankly I didn't even notice all the parallels to New Hope until these critics brought it up. Sometimes you just need to enjoy a movie for what it is.

One critic nailed it when he said The Force Awakens has all the elements we love about Star Wars, without the stuff we hate (Metachloreans, Jar Jar, Trade disputes, Ewoks, etc).

Rev - your rankings are the same as mine!

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby ptdebate » December 27th, 2015, 6:48 pm

Agreed 100% Critic. This movie made me feel more like a giddy child than I have since I was actually a child. I saw the echoes of A New Hope as a loving homage. There's so much that feels new and fresh in this movie that I don't understand those being a valid source of complaint.

As impressive visually as the prequels were, they simply weren't much fun to watch. Episode III is the only one I enjoy today.

I want to go see Force Awakens again before it's out of theaters. I'll probably try to catch it in the Ft. Worth IMAX since that's one of the few cinemas showing it in 70MM.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby scotland » December 30th, 2015, 11:59 pm

VideoGameCritic wrote: Frankly I didn't even notice all the parallels to New Hope until these critics brought it up.


Spoiler alert again, just to make sure. Loved the movie. Glad Lucas sold his baby.

I enjoyed the movie immensely from crawl to credits, but the smudges from carbon paper from the script of A New Hope are blatant. So much so that even avoiding spoilers there were no surprises as I saw this movie in 1977. Really Good remake.

Begin on desert planet, desert hero to be in loose white desert clothing leading dull life, meets spunky little robot and tiny scavenger alien to begin call of adventure, escape desert planet in junky ship...even the exact same ship, exciting shooting of tie fighters getting cocky, ship captured, meets father figure who was a general in exciting war a generation past, girl held prisoner on death star mark AA, force chokes and jedi mind tricks, evil masked man black, evil overlord, strange alien filled bar, dramatic death of father figure tring to redeem a loved one as other loved one looks on...even including someone named Ben, xwing blows up death star AA, even including Porkins, the Falcon, and a trench, etc.

ANH flavored with bits of Empire, ROTJ, and the Expanded Universe.

Loved the movie, and fun to see kids and adults so into it, but really...another Death Star? Is there a clone of Palpatine face palming? Reminds me of the end of Hunt for Red October when the Russian ambassador says another sub is lost and the National Security Advisor, 'Andrei, you've lost another submarine.' not as a question but as saying do you really want to repeat all this again slight variations?

I am glad Lucas sold, but in hindsight, some credit for being daring at times in the Phantom Menace.. Trade and taxes are boring, but are the stuff wars are made of. Qui Jon was a different kind of Jedi. Darth Maul was not a good boy corrupted by the Dark side, but seemed a warrior born and bred for violence. The battle droid central command ship was like a death star, but at least it was not exactly like one but bigger.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby Shapur » January 2nd, 2016, 1:36 am

No need to cover the plot as scotland already did. A total retread of ANH(with a dash of ESB). I found that pretty disappointing, apparently more so than most.
http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/20 ... o12158.jpg
This pic has a humorous version of it.

My scatterbrained initial reactions:

My biggest complaint, even more so than than the rehashed story is Rey. I can't understand the praise. She sucks terribly. Incredibly boring Mary Sue. She's just the super best at everything. She can outfight Kylo without training, she can force pull the lightsaber without any training, she can mind control the stormtroopers without any training, she's a super duper pilot, oh and she even knows the Millenium Falcon better than the guy who practically rebuilt it over the course of his whole friggin' life. There's nothing this girl can't do! I can't even imagine why she needs to find Luke. She clearly is just about at his level after a couple of days away from Jakku.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

All of the characters are really thin. The movie really spends no time establishing what makes these people tick. Finn doesn't feel like a Stormtrooper trained from birth to kill. He seems very average joe actually. On the plus side Boyega is likable enough. Poe is a total non-character. I guess he is the new Han but he has so little screen time he may as well not even be in the movie.

And what is up with JJ Abrams and the idea that the whole universe can be seen just by looking up? Has the man never set foot outside and realized he can't see Neptune? Uranus? How does he think you can see other star systems? How does no one ever mention this too him? Are the Starkiller, the Republic's capital AND Leia's base all in the same star system :?

Speaking of, the Starkiler wasn't just a retread. It was a silly, immature fanboyish retread. "Dude, like the Death Star was the size of a small moon, so let's make the new one planet sized!!!" I get it bigger is better. I can't wait for the one light year long Star Destroyer. Of course in a JJ Abrams universe that's actually about 4 miles.

Another thing I didn't like(I know you say, enough already haha). The parallel between Han and Obi-Wan just doesn't work for me. They throw it in the dialog between Kylo and Rey as"He's like the father you didn't have" or something. Show us, don't tell. She and Finn don't even know the guy. They met him for a couple hours tops. Luke at least new Obi-Wan. He had clearly met "old Ben" Kenobi before. Nothing about the interactions between the kids and Han Solo makes me feel like they got super close or anything.

Other thoughts

Harrison Ford was surprisingly good actually. I haven't seen him do anything I liked in a long time but he wasn't bad at all.
Carrie Fisher looked and sounded so different almost couldn't tell it was the same person.
Anthony Daniels sounded so different they probably could have gotten a different voice actor and he would have sound more like C-3PO.
Adam Driver was alright. He's no Vader but I do get that was the point. Unfortunately without the mask he does look a bit too dweeby to be menacing.
Snoke is a goofy name better suited to Harry Potter than SW
Maz should've been a puppet. Not just for old times sake. The CG just looked very obvious.
Amazingly the First Order has actually trained their Stormtroopers to fight. Palpatine should have thought of that. :lol:
Most of the FX were pretty good. I liked the practical stuff, and over all it did a good job capturing the original aesthetic.


All said and done it was, in my opinion, mediocre. OK if you will. I thought I would totally hate it given my feelings on Abrams' Star Trek films, and the spoilers I read before hand. To me, it's a pale shadow of the original films, but it was quite a bit better than the prequels. Lucas pretty much killed my childhood enthusiasm for Star Wars, but this is decent enough that I'm willing to hang in there and see what a different director can bring to it.

I'd rank the films:
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. The Force Awakens
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Attack of the Clones

??. Revenge of the Sith - I've never bothered to watch it. Yeah, I hated AOTC that much.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby scotland » January 2nd, 2016, 9:18 am

I will rank the canon stuff too. Lots not canon, from the Timothy Zahn and other EU books, knights of the old republic and other video games, the original Clone Wars microseries cartoon that gave us a wicked cool Grievious, the holiday special and saturday morning cartoons, and the Marvel and Dark Horse comics.

1. Star Wars: The original theatrical version, without any other title. It was original, the characters had flaws and charm, important things were just hinted out, and you were glued to your seat from blockade runner to award ceremony. Obi Wan, you're my only hope. Use the Force, Luke. Saw it many times in the theater, read the book, read the marvel comics, read Famous Monster magazine, played the arcade game, just wanted more.

2. Empire Strikes Back: A great sequel that told a new story. The first movie we waited years to see. Darth Vader is Lukes Father - or is he lying? A real ligtsaber duel! A wise puppet yoda he is. Do or do not, there is no try. Pray I do not alter it further. The great battle at Hoth. Vader without Tarkin holding his leash. However, the C3PO as comic relief is carried too far, and Lando is like an imitation Han Solo without a wookie.

3. The Clone Wars: The long running Cartoon Network animated show got dark and grisly with death and slavery. It was fun and flashy, but dipped into the horror of war. It explored the life of the clones. It also gave us Ahsoka Tano, a strong willed and flawed female Star Wars character whose journey is still being explored.

4. Force Unleashed: This generations big Star Wars moment, and a chance to see big money and fresh ideas, but it was a really lavish rehash. All the EU tossed out for a Mary Sue protagonist. Another droid with personality? Fun, rewatchable spectacle, and sure to sell more toys than could fit in a death star, but literally the same story with different and less interesting characters.

5. Star Wars Rebels: The first look at Disney Star Wars. This ongoing cartoon series is much lighter in tone than Clone Wars, being far more obviously a kids show. Its fun, might go in unexpected ways, but so far is also very derivative except for being more diverse in cast. Another wookie like character, another apprentice jedi, droid with personality in Chopper...at least we continue the story of Ahsoka Tano.

6. Revenge of the Sith: The big Frankenstein No! Palpatine was great, but Anykins descent seemed like the Joker theory of one bad day turns heroes to villains. Anakyin goes from helping an old man seemingly about to be killed by a wrathful jedi to slaughtering children at the temple, little kids who idolized him, cutting them down with a lightsaber slash by slash? The huge time skip between the last movie muddied the plot. Had some great fight scenes, but fighting on a lava river? I get that its Anykins hell,but over the top. And Yod, 1000 year old wise yoda, cant see the dark sith lord two doors down that he has breakfast with every thursday?

7. Return of the Jedi: Disappointing decisions to sacrifice storytelling for toy sales. Cute furry teddy bears take on evil armored soldiers and win. Another death star. A silly Boba Fett death. The great feared Jabba is a fat worm. Luke seems to be a jedi master with a few weeks training. Han lives. Darth is the dad, instead of being, yknow, a dark side tempter liar...which made Obi Wan into a liar, even after he was a dead force ghost he never told Luke. Just a disappointing end to the trilogy.I did like Admiral Ackbar though...

8. Phantom Menace: The movie we waited a decade for. The movie that could pull the best from the Expanded Universe gave us Jar Jar and midichlorians. It goes against a lot I thougt we knew. Silly kid Vader to be making a useless C3PO protocol droid as a hobby project. Tatooine again? The death of the father figure to a lightsaber as the apprentice looks on. Another death star ending? Why does this planet elect a kid as queen? The pod tace was too silly to take seriously. On the plus side, Liam Neilson as Qui Jon was great, Ewen Macgregor and Natalie Portman were well cast, the droid cgi was stunning at the time. Taxes and trade routes are things that cause wars, we see a day in the life of a regular jedi, the senate's impotence was realistic, and Darth Maul lots of fun. Also, the rise of Palpatine.

9. Attack of the Clones: I dont hate it as much as many do.It has some fun moments, killing giant monsters in an arena, but its just so jumbled. I wish the great Christopher Lee had been better developed as Dooku in the first film, especially as Qui Jons former master. Same for Jango Fett - he could have been Darth Maul in that film. It is supposed to be a trilogy, but its all just so unconnected. The droids were just a joke by thus point. The casting for Anykin was poor, and the age difference between Anykin and Padme seemed to be gone. Oh, that dialogue. The lightsaber fighting crossed a line here to fun but over the top acrobatics so much it made the original trilogy duels seem geriatric.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby ptdebate » January 2nd, 2016, 8:17 pm

I'd like to, first and foremost, submit a rebuttal to the highly problematic "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument introduced by Shapur. To quote:

My biggest complaint, even more so than than the rehashed story is Rey. I can't understand the praise. She sucks terribly. Incredibly boring Mary Sue. She's just the super best at everything. She can outfight Kylo without training, she can force pull the lightsaber without any training, she can mind control the stormtroopers without any training, she's a super duper pilot, oh and she even knows the Millenium Falcon better than the guy who practically rebuilt it over the course of his whole friggin' life. There's nothing this girl can't do! I can't even imagine why she needs to find Luke. She clearly is just about at his level after a couple of days away from Jakku.


First let's look at Rey's skill set. Is it realistic that she would be as good at fighting, machine operation, and force powers as she is? Let's tackle them in that order.

She's a scavenger on a backwater planet where there's literally nothing to do other than 1) fool around with machinery and 2) get in fights (as depicted in the film). The novelization mentions that Niima outpost (the small settlement where Finn meets Rey) is the largest settlement on the entire planet! It's tiny! There's no sport, art, or culture in this place. Rey's world is a world of constant physical conflict, where the struggle for survival has hardened her. Jakku makes Tatooine look like paradise.

Rey is a wistful girl who dreams of space travel. She spends most of her waking life inside space ships for Christ's sake! It's not unreasonable that she'd know a thing or two about their operation. She knows the Falcon because guess what? Her master Unkar Plutt is it's owner! She knows it well enough to know what an unreliable piece of "garbage" it is. She knew that Unkar Plutt had installed a compressor on the hyperdrive, but didn't realize why that was a bad idea until speaking with Han.

Now for the subject of force use. Did anyone call Luke a Mary Sue because he could pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers blindfolded after only a few tries? That he could achieve superhuman feats like hitting a small opening hundreds of meters away with no assistance from his ship's targeting system? What about Anakin, who completely ignorant of his force powers was already able to "see things before they happen" and race pods, something no other human was capable of. Now let's look at Rey. Is she perfect? Nah. She certainly managed to get herself captured! Can she fight harder than a cornered hyena though? You betcha. Is she an expert with spaceships due to twenty years of working on them. Duh.

Lastly, the confrontation with Kylo Ren. There are a few reasons why you read that scene incorrectly, but the most glaring one is Chewie's bowcaster, which throughout the entire movie is highlighted for its awesome power. In one scene where Chewie shoots a stormtrooper with it, the blowback throws the stormtrooper like 20 feet. THAT's what Kylo Ren is hit with right before he fights Rey.

Secondly, you can tell that his head's not in the game. He's nowhere near being a Sith Lord because he can't control himself. A proper Sith is able to use anger to his advantage; Kylo buckles under it and lashes out in immature outbursts. He hasn't learned the crucial Sith ability of managing the power of the dark side. He's letting IT manage HIM.

Rey's intentions are pure and her head is clear when she fights Kylo, which is why it's such a satisfying moment for her to defeat him. Nevertheless, she is about to be slain herself when she realized that she needs to tap into the force while fighting. That's when things begin to turn around for her. She succeeds in her awkward lunges because she's reading Kylo's mind. She knows how he's going to move next and his able to anticipate him and strike first. Kylo, full of unchecked pride and self-confidence & badly injured, is downed by the headstrong Jedi-to-be.

In conclusion, you're calling Rey a Mary Sue because she is female. Is she good at everything? No. But she happens to be really good at fighting and spaceships for well-established reasons, and is almost if not equally as force-capable as Luke was in ANH.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby Shapur » January 4th, 2016, 1:32 am

ptdebate wrote: It's not unreasonable that she'd know a thing or two about their operation. She knows the Falcon because guess what? Her master Unkar Plutt is it's owner! She knows it well enough to know what an unreliable piece of "garbage" it is. She knew that Unkar Plutt had installed a compressor on the hyperdrive, but didn't realize why that was a bad idea until speaking with Han.


I know it's a movie so I give it some leeway but try taking your Saab in to a guy who only works on domestics. Being familiar with a specific set a vehicles is way different than being an expert on all of them especially a modified one. That she can fix stuff isn't that annoying or out of character. She might even be familiar with the Falcon. It isn't shown in the film. All we see is that she knows of it. Not that shes flown it/fixed it/examined it. Hey it could have happened but it isn't in the movie. The more annoying thing is having to let her explain to Han. The movie was written by writers. We have to ask ourselves why they chose to write it in that way. Its written deliberately that way so he can be like "Wow you know your stuff", and the audience can know just how cool, and smart Rey is. She gets to have a little Wesley Crusher moment. This in and of itself is not too bad.(See final comments)

ptdebate wrote:Now for the subject of force use. Did anyone call Luke a Mary Sue because he could pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers blindfolded after only a few tries? That he could achieve superhuman feats like hitting a small opening hundreds of meters away with no assistance from his ship's targeting system? What about Anakin, who completely ignorant of his force powers was already able to "see things before they happen" and race pods, something no other human was capable of.


Luke blocks two training blasts blindfolded after receiving instruction from Obi-Wan for a while. He manages to hit a small target once, after being spoken to by Kenobis force ghost. Rey, at no time in the actual film, receives instruction from anyone on how to do anything. She mind controls a trooper, pulls the saber, resists Rens Jedi mind meld while somehow using that to steal his info(or so the fans tell me). Comparing her to Luke is ludicrous.

For starters Luke can't be a Mary Sue because hes basically a wimp most of the movie and most of the other characters are decidedly un-impressed by Luke. Only Obi-Wan thinks he can do more. He only manages one really impressive feat the entire time. Yeah, he's a chosen one character but he is not in any way shape or form good at everything. Or even most things.......or even several things. Like I said, she does almost everything Luke manages to train himself to do with the force over three movies. It's not satisfying development of a character/character abilities. This is where the fanfic-y feel of Rey comes from. Rey is like Luke, except the writer wants to show much cooler the new character is so her force powers go to eleven. ;)

Don't expect me to be defending Anakin. Watching him accidentally take off in a starfighter to go win a battle was absolutely unbearable.

ptdebate wrote:Lastly, the confrontation with Kylo Ren. There are a few reasons why you read that scene incorrectly, but the most glaring one is Chewie's bowcaster, which throughout the entire movie is highlighted for its awesome power. In one scene where Chewie shoots a stormtrooper with it, the blowback throws the stormtrooper like 20 feet. THAT's what Kylo Ren is hit with right before he fights Rey.
......
Rey's intentions are pure and her head is clear when she fights Kylo, which is why it's such a satisfying moment for her to defeat him. Nevertheless, she is about to be slain herself when she realized that she needs to tap into the force while fighting. That's when things begin to turn around for her. She succeeds in her awkward lunges because she's reading Kylo's mind. She knows how he's going to move next and his able to anticipate him and strike first. Kylo, full of unchecked pride and self-confidence & badly injured, is downed by the headstrong Jedi-to-be.


No one missed Chewies bowcaster. They all but had Han turn to the audience and exclaim "Now with 300% more lasers" That Kylo is injured isn't actually very important to the discussion of Rey. Injured or not, the audience is told hes still a big bad ass because he can easily beat Finn, the guy who incidentally probably should know something about combat(....or janitoring :? ) The intention of the scene is to show how awesome Rey is. If they wanted Kylo beaten by bad luck, or fate, a tree could have just fallen over on him. Rey getting to pull the saber with the force before he can, and as you say read his mind(another amazing Jedi trick I would think needs some honing) is the important part. The way Rey is written and presented to the audience counts for a lot. Abrams doesn't want to waste time building her up like they did with Luke. This not new to him. It's kind of his thing actually.
I, believe it or not, actually like Rey more than his other fate driven chosen one in Chris Pine's Kirk.

ptdebate wrote: Is she good at everything? No. But she happens to be really good at fighting and spaceships for well-established reasons, and is almost if not equally as force-capable as Luke was in ANH.


She is not almost if not equally as force capable. She is clearly, and obviously more force capable. It's a fairer fight to argue whether Luke in RotJ is as force capable as Rey in TFA. The force has always been a nebulous catch all explanation for not entirely plausible things in the movies. You gotta draw the line somewherethough. This is like a movie series having crazy car races, so now I'm supposed to accept Vin Diesel being shot out of a car door over a bridge to catch a woman in mid air........yeah crap that made a bajillion dollars too. Anywho, at some point the disbelief stops suspending. For me, watching Rey instruct the Trooper to leave was my audible "You have got be kidding me" moment.

ptdebate wrote:In conclusion, you're calling Rey a Mary Sue because she is female.


I'd be lost without people to tell my why I do the things I do. :|

Explaining away every one of her awesome abilities is of course doable. It misses that the totality of things she is good at is both implausible, and unsatisfying. I personally think we're going to find out why shes just so super awesome with the force in the next movie, but it isn't here in this movie, and that matters. Rey isn't the worst character ever committed to screen. I don't want to be hyperbolic. She just isn't anything exciting, or interesting for me.


VideoGameCritic wrote: a few critics took exception (and suffered the wrath of readers).

Man you ain't kidding. The confluence of a rabid fanbase and identity politics seems to turn every criticism of the movie into a terrifying shit storm. I've suffered enough of that wrath myself in some other places that I'm pretty turned off of discussing or even watching another Star Wars movie. I think I'm going to take another decade off from it.

It's cool people like it but it should be cool that some people don't. Put down the pitchforks potential readers, remember I did say it was ok. I'll even go so far as to say it was better than Jurassic World, and possibly JJ Abrams best film :D
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby scotland » January 4th, 2016, 7:28 am

Shapur wrote: Explaining away every one of her awesome abilities is of course doable. It misses that the totality of things she is good at is both implausible, and unsatisfying. I personally think we're going to find out why shes just so super awesome with the force in the next movie, but it isn't here in this movie, and that matters.


I am with Shapur on this. For a novice to have her range of abilities makes it both implausible (even given this fictional science magic world) and emotionally unsatisfying.

I think of "Mary Sue' it as a perfectly useable term to describe an overly capable character. Storytelling 101 is that every character needs at least one major flaw, and not a generic 'color yellow' thing, but something that enhances the plot. Rey is not perfect, but her flaws are blemishes, at least so far.

I was recently made aware that the term 'Mary Sue' may not be politically correct. There is an article on I09 called 'stop spreading this nonsense that Rey is a Mary Sue'. If you don't feel like this character is a "Mary Sue", than I appreciate what PtDebate and Shapur have done, and discuss it, reasonably, and respectively. I don't appreciate calling it 'nonsense', which is a way to immediately diminish and tarnish the other person's opinion by a labeling it with a pejorative.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby bluenote » January 4th, 2016, 11:07 am

Scotland, you've made some great points (some of which I haven't thought of), but perhaps they are showing just how much stronger Rey is with the force than Luke was? Maybe they are saying "you remember how Luke fuddled around with the force and took him a long time to get good at it, well, look how strong Rey is with it already!" Perhaps she'll be a lot stronger with the force than Luke ever was.

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII Discussion ***SPOILERS***

Postby ptdebate » January 4th, 2016, 11:13 am

I'll let this be my closing arguments in order to avoid having this thread spin off any more than it already has (for which I accept the blame).

Scotland-- with all due respect, neither you nor anyone else has ever called a male character a "Mary Sue." For that reason alone, it is a ridiculous appellation.

Among JJ's greatest successes with TFA is successfully upsetting people with the portrayal of Rey. Allow me to explain.

When we see uncanny displays of competence in film, be it Poe Dameron, who "can fly anything," taking down 5 TIE fighters in 15 seconds, we rarely ask questions. Unless, of course, that person is female. We assume automatically, for example, that she won't know how to fly the Millennium Falcon, and are surprised by her competence when it turns out that she can. We never bat an eye at the fact that Poe feels just as comfortable inside the cockpit of a TIE fighter as in an X-Wing.

Rey is like Luke, except the writer wants to show much cooler the new character is so her force powers go to eleven. ;)


You're only drawing attention to this because she's a female character. If it were another male protagonist, the idea of TFA's protagonist being even MORE force capable than Luke would not garner attention. It could be anyone! The descendant of Obi Wan, another force-conceived being like Anakin, Darth Plagueis reincarnated... When Anakin in the prequels turned out to have far more force capability than other jedi--even Yoda--we accepted it as part of the story and moved on.

Don't expect me to be defending Anakin. Watching him accidentally take off in a starfighter to go win a battle was absolutely unbearable.


Did you call Anakin a Mary Sue back in 1999? Anakin intuitively understands the way machinery works in ways that are very similar to Rey. Sure, the character is poorly cast and dreadfully boring to watch, but TPM's Anakin is a whiz kid because of his close connection to the Force, which he is able to tap into without training. You're scoffing at an example that weakens your argument substantially.

For starters Luke can't be a Mary Sue because hes basically a wimp most of the movie and most of the other characters are decidedly un-impressed by Luke. Only Obi-Wan thinks he can do more. He only manages one really impressive feat the entire time. Yeah, he's a chosen one character but he is not in any way shape or form good at everything. Or even most things.......or even several things. Like I said, she does almost everything Luke manages to train himself to do with the force over three movies.


I strongly disagree. Obi Wan doesn't train Luke in ANH, he merely advises him on the Force, which is exactly what Maz Kanata does for Rey in TFA. Within the span of a single movie, having gained only the very vaguest instruction to "use the force" rather than relying on the senses, Luke is able to anticipate the future and takes down the moon-sized Death Star with a single bomb.

Injured or not, the audience is told hes still a big bad ass because he can easily beat Finn, the guy who incidentally probably should know something about combat(....or janitoring :? ) The intention of the scene is to show how awesome Rey is. If they wanted Kylo beaten by bad luck, or fate, a tree could have just fallen over on him. Rey getting to pull the saber with the force before he can, and as you say read his mind(another amazing Jedi trick I would think needs some honing) is the important part. The way Rey is written and presented to the audience counts for a lot. Abrams doesn't want to waste time building her up like they did with Luke. This not new to him. It's kind of his thing actually.


Allow me to remind you that Luke force pulls a lightsaber at the beginning of ESB, before receiving any jedi training from Yoda.

The movie makes it abundantly clear that Rey is already a skilled fighter. Why would Finn be more skilled? He's a janitor who's only been deployed on one field mission (which he ran away from!)

Explaining away every one of her awesome abilities is of course doable. It misses that the totality of things she is good at is both implausible, and unsatisfying.


The core of your argument seems to be that Rey is an unsatisfying character. A matter of opinion, to be sure, but one that seems to have no factual grounding. Unlike any of Lucas' protagonists Rey convincingly and sympathetically expresses longing, regret, and the pain of loss. Having to accept that she was truly alone and that her family was never coming back for her was a key turning point for her character. Rey pulling the lightsaber from the snow was such an emotionally satisfying shot because it represents her fully accepting who she is and who she is destined to become.

I've suffered enough of that wrath myself in some other places that I'm pretty turned off of discussing or even watching another Star Wars movie. I think I'm going to take another decade off from it.


Are you sure that's not because there are serious problems with your reading of this film's protagonist?
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