Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

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Steve
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Steve » January 2nd, 2018, 10:46 am

I just saw this movie over the holiday and while it was not perfect, I thought it was awesome and memorable. There were a few disappointments for me but all Star Wars movies have a few disappointments, some more than this movie. I would agree that the casino scene was unnecessary and at the very least could have been edited down. I didn't really like the Rose character and I thought Carrie Fisher was underutilized. However, from what I've read, episode IX was supposed to be 'her movie'. Too bad that won't happen now.

Having said that, the 'fan' backlash is completely out of control. People analyze it like it should be a completely factual documentary. My most hated criticism is about how Vice Admiral Holdo didn't reveal her plans. Maybe that's the way that scene was intended? I can certainly imagine the script calling for that character to make a mistake that results in the death of many characters. People act like characters haven't made bad decisions before.

I read a comment in another thread but I don't remember which thread or who said it but it basically called out the fact that people love to put something on a pedestal and then kick it out from under them. It's just so cool to be negative now since that is what gets attention. This is hardly the worst movie ever made and in my opinion, it isn't even close to the worst Star Wars movie. I'd probably put it at a strong 5th place of 9 total so far with none of the 9 being 'bad'.

ESauce
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ESauce » January 2nd, 2018, 10:51 am

GameOfThrones wrote:
Let's start with the plot holes.

1. There's no gravity in space so those bombs at the beginning would not fall in that way.
2. Luke did not go to the island to die otherwise why did he leave a map.
3. You cannot open ship doors without an airlock
4. Leia flying through space and surviving space is ridiculous.
5. Makes no sense that Rey can do everything with no training.
6. Why did Holdo not simply tell Po her plan?
7. The rebel base at the end, had no shield so why could it not be destroyed from space?
8. Hyperspace as a weapon means the rest of star wars now makes no sense. If hyperspace can be used as a weapon why not simply fly ships into the death star etc etc.
9. How did the code breaker simply just walk out of jail and why did he not do that earlier?
10. If the rebel ships were too fast for the imperial ships to shoot down why is it that they couldn't fly away from the slower imperial ships.



1. You can’t poke holes in how the bombs work in space given the fact that the entire series relies on space not following the laws of physics. This is an absurd criticism

2. No one said he left a map. People somehow had coordinates to find him; it’s not explained how.

3. See 1

4. See 1

5. The Force makes no sense; it’s a movie. She’s supposed to be far more powerful than almost anyone Luke has seen so it’s not like this doesn’t make sense within the universe.

6. So the information wouldn’t leak, which is exactly what happened when Poe did learn the plan. I appreciated the director not spelling out the obvious here.

7. This was explained. Watch again.

8. Probably it wouldn’t have worked with the Death Stars shields up. Probably this was a desperation move that would be hard to pull off except in particlar circumstances.

9. I don’t know.

10. You mean while they were being tracked? They were maintaining he slowest possible speed to stay out of range so they could burn as little fuel as possible.


There are plenty of plot holes in the original trilogy and every movie if you look hard enough. Minor plot holes aren’t a reason to say a movie is bad; they’re just something people who dislike a movie try to point to.

If you didn’t like the movie it’s fine, you don’t have to try to justify it.

newmodelarmy
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby newmodelarmy » January 2nd, 2018, 6:48 pm

ESauce wrote:
GameOfThrones wrote:
Let's start with the plot holes.

1. There's no gravity in space so those bombs at the beginning would not fall in that way.
2. Luke did not go to the island to die otherwise why did he leave a map.
3. You cannot open ship doors without an airlock
4. Leia flying through space and surviving space is ridiculous.
5. Makes no sense that Rey can do everything with no training.
6. Why did Holdo not simply tell Po her plan?
7. The rebel base at the end, had no shield so why could it not be destroyed from space?
8. Hyperspace as a weapon means the rest of star wars now makes no sense. If hyperspace can be used as a weapon why not simply fly ships into the death star etc etc.
9. How did the code breaker simply just walk out of jail and why did he not do that earlier?
10. If the rebel ships were too fast for the imperial ships to shoot down why is it that they couldn't fly away from the slower imperial ships.



1. You can’t poke holes in how the bombs work in space given the fact that the entire series relies on space not following the laws of physics. This is an absurd criticism

2. No one said he left a map. People somehow had coordinates to find him; it’s not explained how.

3. See 1

4. See 1

5. The Force makes no sense; it’s a movie. She’s supposed to be far more powerful than almost anyone Luke has seen so it’s not like this doesn’t make sense within the universe.

6. So the information wouldn’t leak, which is exactly what happened when Poe did learn the plan. I appreciated the director not spelling out the obvious here.

7. This was explained. Watch again.

8. Probably it wouldn’t have worked with the Death Stars shields up. Probably this was a desperation move that would be hard to pull off except in particlar circumstances.

9. I don’t know.

10. You mean while they were being tracked? They were maintaining he slowest possible speed to stay out of range so they could burn as little fuel as possible.


There are plenty of plot holes in the original trilogy and every movie if you look hard enough. Minor plot holes aren’t a reason to say a movie is bad; they’re just something people who dislike a movie try to point to.

If you didn’t like the movie it’s fine, you don’t have to try to justify it.


I agree with your list It's a movie folks! Empire is my favorite move of all time and it has plenty of huh? moments like when they are going through the asteroid field and Han and Chewie are working on the hyper drive...who is driving the Falcon? Also, when Luke lands he runs into Leia who warns him of an ambush...so why does he not go after her? Wasn't the whole purpose of his mission to save her and his friends. Anyway, Last Jedi was not perfect but I enjoyed it. It is a good Star Wars movie.I can't wait to see it again. I mean I find it so funny and amusing that people spend more time trying to poke endless ridiculous holes in the movie instead of trying to enjoy for what it is. I mean, if you hated you are certainly entitled to your opinion (plenty of people did) so far be for me to try to change anybody's mind but folks, it is a movie! I found it to be intense, fun and I loved the fact that it introduced new concepts and ideas into the SW universe. Was it perfect? No. I did not like the Casino scene and Rose kind of annoyed me but that was just a minor set back in an otherwise satisfying movie.

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 2nd, 2018, 7:08 pm

I'm... divided in my opinion. I didn't hate it, I enjoyed watching it, but there were still some serious problems. Here's my take on it:

1. I hate Rose. I wanted Fin's part of the story to be him exploring his past as a Storm Trooper and contemplating his place in the Rebellion, especially since all we got in the first movie was people yelling "Traitor!" Have Phasma be chasing him, tell him how useless he was and the rebellion is better of without him, and then build up to an epic confrontation between them in the end. Instead, we get Sunshine and Roses (see what I did there?) hijacking his part of the story for... nothing, really. They could have cut his "adventure" at the casino and lost nothing except for Rose getting on her soapbox about how rich people are bad, bad people (because apparently selling guns to the First Order is literally the only way people get rich in this universe). Maybe this could have been an effective scene if they'd developed it right, but they didn't. And then SHE FREAKING SABOTAGES FIN AT THE END! AAAAAAUGH! And why does she do it? Because love is stronger than hate? I was actually disappointed when it turned out she was just injured in the end instead of, you know, DEAD.

2. Flying Leia. Don't like it. It's the same problem I had with Rey in the first movie. She's not a Jedi. She was never trained to use the Force. She can't just decide that she knows how to use it. Sure, maybe she can sense things, but Superman-ing her way through space is just too much. And if she was trained, then the fact that it was never shown or even spoken about means it didn't happen anyway.

3. Snoke. Who was he? Where did he come from? How did he come into power? Why was he doing what he was doing? Literally none of these questions were answered, and now they never will be because he's dead. They built him up as this series' big bad guy, and then just threw him away.

4. Luke didn't act like Luke. I get that he's been broken, and I'm for that. Show us the character from a different light. But I don't feel like his attitude here was earned. He thought Ben was evil, and then his suspicions were confirmed when he pulled an Anakin and killed literally everyone in Luke's temple. And his response? Go into exile. Ignore that he was right all along, don't chase down his rogue apprentice, just give up and hide. I especially hated his "What do you expect me to do, go up against the entire First Order?" line, since that literally describes the entire original trilogy in one sentence.

So yeah, not the worst Star Wars by any means, but definitely not the best either. I don't hate that they did things differently, I hate that they didn't do it well. They had some good ideas, but executed most if not all of them badly.

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ptdebate
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ptdebate » January 2nd, 2018, 9:54 pm

DaHeckIzDat wrote:I'm... divided in my opinion. I didn't hate it, I enjoyed watching it, but there were still some serious problems. Here's my take on it:

1. I hate Rose. I wanted Fin's part of the story to be him exploring his past as a Storm Trooper and contemplating his place in the Rebellion, especially since all we got in the first movie was people yelling "Traitor!" Have Phasma be chasing him, tell him how useless he was and the rebellion is better of without him, and then build up to an epic confrontation between them in the end. Instead, we get Sunshine and Roses (see what I did there?) hijacking his part of the story for... nothing, really. They could have cut his "adventure" at the casino and lost nothing except for Rose getting on her soapbox about how rich people are bad, bad people (because apparently selling guns to the First Order is literally the only way people get rich in this universe). Maybe this could have been an effective scene if they'd developed it right, but they didn't. And then SHE FREAKING SABOTAGES FIN AT THE END! AAAAAAUGH! And why does she do it? Because love is stronger than hate? I was actually disappointed when it turned out she was just injured in the end instead of, you know, DEAD.

2. Flying Leia. Don't like it. It's the same problem I had with Rey in the first movie. She's not a Jedi. She was never trained to use the Force. She can't just decide that she knows how to use it. Sure, maybe she can sense things, but Superman-ing her way through space is just too much. And if she was trained, then the fact that it was never shown or even spoken about means it didn't happen anyway.

3. Snoke. Who was he? Where did he come from? How did he come into power? Why was he doing what he was doing? Literally none of these questions were answered, and now they never will be because he's dead. They built him up as this series' big bad guy, and then just threw him away.

4. Luke didn't act like Luke. I get that he's been broken, and I'm for that. Show us the character from a different light. But I don't feel like his attitude here was earned. He thought Ben was evil, and then his suspicions were confirmed when he pulled an Anakin and killed literally everyone in Luke's temple. And his response? Go into exile. Ignore that he was right all along, don't chase down his rogue apprentice, just give up and hide. I especially hated his "What do you expect me to do, go up against the entire First Order?" line, since that literally describes the entire original trilogy in one sentence.

So yeah, not the worst Star Wars by any means, but definitely not the best either. I don't hate that they did things differently, I hate that they didn't do it well. They had some good ideas, but executed most if not all of them badly.


1. The Casino side plot actually exists to highlight the point that the very wealthy profiteer off of endless war in the galaxy, which is also what happens in reality. It adds dimension to a conflict that was heretofore presented in very Manichean terms. Literally nowhere does the movie say that arms are the only way to get rich, or that all rich people are bad. The movie does strongly imply that Canto Bight is where the rich arm dealers like to hang out, however.
Rose Tico "sabotages" Finn's attempt to ram himself into a battery cannon so that he doesn't die. Seems pretty reasonable to me considering she loves him.

2. List of characters in the films who use force powers with zero training:

Anakin Skywalker (in TPM)
Chirrut Imwe (in
Luke Skywalker
Leia Organa (in both Return of the Jedi and TLJ)
Rey

plus every other Jedi in the saga who was discovered to have force sensitivity and taken in for training as a padawan.

3. Snoke was a red herring. It's a technique used to misdirect the audience to heighten the effect of surprise. It doesn't matter in the context of the story who he is, because his purpose was to be killed by Kylo Ren, solidifying his role as the big baddie.

4. Despite everything the Jedi, the Rebellion, and the New Republic accomplished during and immediately before Luke's life, it all ended in failure. The Empire came back in a new form, the New Republic failed to reach a consensus that would allow it to address this, and the Jedi were extinguished. Luke's ennui is that of a man who has failed so much that he's lost confidence in his ability to succeed. This is a natural evolution of Luke from the OT, who complained, whined, doubted, and acted impulsively. In the end, he did succeed in turning Darth Vader, but he failed to learn the lesson Yoda tried to impart: focus on the here and now, stop basing your behaviors on a vision you have for how you think the future should be. More often than not, the vision could either be faulty or deliberately manipulated by the enemy to trip you up.

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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ESauce » January 2nd, 2018, 11:49 pm

How much backstory did the Emperor have in the original trilogy?

The answer is absolutely none. Every movie now has to have a long backstory for every character that spends more than a minute on screen. It’s formulaic and tiresome. It’s nice to have a movie where no one spends 5 minutes explaining their past to their partner in between action scenes. Who’s Snoke? Doesn’t matter he’s dead now. Who are Rey’s parents? No one, it doesn’t matter who they are. What matters is the character building happening onscreen.

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 3rd, 2018, 12:24 am

ptdebate wrote:1. The Casino side plot actually exists to highlight the point that the very wealthy profiteer off of endless war in the galaxy, which is also what happens in reality. It adds dimension to a conflict that was heretofore presented in very Manichean terms. Literally nowhere does the movie say that arms are the only way to get rich, or that all rich people are bad. The movie does strongly imply that Canto Bight is where the rich arm dealers like to hang out, however.

I would agree, but the plot handles it so terribly that it just becomes another setpiece for action to happen in. The fact that Rose had to exposition dump everything instead of the movie letting the audience discover things alongside the characters is proof of that.

ptdebate wrote:Rose Tico "sabotages" Finn's attempt to ram himself into a battery cannon so that he doesn't die. Seems pretty reasonable to me considering she loves him.

Fin loves the rebellion and what they stand for, as well as Poe and whatever other friends he has in there. I'm pretty sure sacrificing himself to keep the wall from being breached is a greater example of "saving what you love" than Rose selfishly saving the man she's only known for a day because she "loves" him.

ptdebate wrote:2. List of characters in the films who use force powers with zero training:

Anakin Skywalker (in TPM)
Chirrut Imwe (in
Luke Skywalker
Leia Organa (in both Return of the Jedi and TLJ)
Rey

plus every other Jedi in the saga who was discovered to have force sensitivity and taken in for training as a padawan.

Anakin had good reflexes and guessed what pictures the masters were looking at. We know next to nothing about Chirrut, so for all we know he could have been an escaped Jedi like Obi Wan and Yoda. Besides, everything he did could be summed up as "sensing stuff" which I already said wasn't that big a deal. Luke blocked a couple of laser bolts and then fired a missile. You can't equate the things those characters did to Rey learning one of the most advanced Jedi tricks (the mind trick) just because she wanted to use it, or Leia literally flying through space for the same reason. Luke was training for weeks/months with Yoda, and couldn't raise his ship out of the bog. Luke outright refused to train Rey, and she was moving half a mountain at the end of the movie. Those things simply cannot be equated.

ptdebate wrote:3. Snoke was a red herring. It's a technique used to misdirect the audience to heighten the effect of surprise. It doesn't matter in the context of the story who he is, because his purpose was to be killed by Kylo Ren, solidifying his role as the big baddie.

He was a red herring because the new director didn't like him, not because he was supposed to be. JJ Abrams, whatever your opinion on him is, set things up to go a specific way, and Rian pretty much said, "Nah! I'm doin' it my way." Claiming that a character's only purpose is to be killed by another character, especially after building him up to be something important, is lazy writing. A character needs to be a character, not a living plot device!

ptdebate wrote:4. Despite everything the Jedi, the Rebellion, and the New Republic accomplished during and immediately before Luke's life, it all ended in failure. The Empire came back in a new form, the New Republic failed to reach a consensus that would allow it to address this, and the Jedi were extinguished. Luke's ennui is that of a man who has failed so much that he's lost confidence in his ability to succeed. This is a natural evolution of Luke from the OT, who complained, whined, doubted, and acted impulsively. In the end, he did succeed in turning Darth Vader, but he failed to learn the lesson Yoda tried to impart: focus on the here and now, stop basing your behaviors on a vision you have for how you think the future should be. More often than not, the vision could either be faulty or deliberately manipulated by the enemy to trip you up.

Again, this makes sense, but it's all handled horribly! This is the kid who jumped the gun at every single opportunity, be it looking for adventure, seeking revenge, or helping his friends. If you want to break Luke, I'm all for it, but you can't just say "It happened" and expect us to live with someone who's not acting at all like the character we know and love. The key to writing a good book is to show, not tell, and that goes doubly for movies which are a visual form of storytelling. If you're not going to show us something, it might as well not have happened! We saw something bad happen, but only got excuses as to why that left Luke behaving the way he was. Mark Hamill himself came out and said he didn't like what they did to Luke, as it wasn't true to who he was. What else do you need to hear?

ESauce wrote:How much backstory did the Emperor have in the original trilogy?

He didn't need any, because the setting was established. Evil empire, ergo evil emperor. Snoke is different because they took down the Empire in RotJ, and then give literally no explanation as to where this First Order came from, or how they rose to power, or even WHAT they are. Are they a legitimate government that replaced the empire? Are they an invading force trying to take control of the galaxy by sheer military might? Are they simply one faction in a galaxy with multiple governments? And that doesn't even mention Snoke, who is a brand new sith lord that just came out of nowhere with no explanation and is then thrown away.

It'd be like if they made a sequel to The Lord of the Rings, where the Dark Lord Mauron has built an orc army and is trying to regain the Other One Ring that can help him regain his lost power... but wait, didn't we already do this? Where did this Mauron guy come from and why is he doing the exact same thing that Sauron did? By your logic, those are stupid questions that we don't need to ask, despite the massive implications the answers would have on the story.

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Stalvern
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Stalvern » January 3rd, 2018, 1:27 am

ptdebate wrote:Rose Tico "sabotages" Finn's attempt to ram himself into a battery cannon so that he doesn't die. Seems pretty reasonable to me considering she loves him.

Nah, that's the most stupid thing in the whole movie. She doesn't know about the secret back door in the cave, so as far as she's concerned, she's killing everyone she knows to save this one guy. And the movie expects us to accept her worthless platitudes about how this is a good deal right after Laura Dern is presented as a heroine for doing literally the exact same thing as Finn to Snoke's ship. It's idiotic at best and morally revolting at worst.

ESauce wrote:How much backstory did the Emperor have in the original trilogy?

The question wasn't raised in the original trilogy. It is here.
Last edited by Stalvern on January 3rd, 2018, 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

ESauce
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ESauce » January 3rd, 2018, 10:38 am

Stalvern wrote:

ESauce wrote:How much backstory did the Emperor have in the original trilogy?

The question wasn't raised in the original trilogy. It is here.


Only by people on the internet. The only difference is that there were a thousand people writing different theories online about Snoke and so everyone built up a ton of anticipation for the reveal and were disappointed that they didn’t learn anything.

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 3rd, 2018, 11:15 am

ESauce wrote:
Stalvern wrote:

ESauce wrote:How much backstory did the Emperor have in the original trilogy?

The question wasn't raised in the original trilogy. It is here.


Only by people on the internet. The only difference is that there were a thousand people writing different theories online about Snoke and so everyone built up a ton of anticipation for the reveal and were disappointed that they didn’t learn anything.


Therein lies one of the biggest problems with this movie. The first movie presented two huge questions (who are Rey's parents and who is Snoke?) and this mpovie gave both the same answer: they're nobody and they don't matter. Can you blame anyone, nor just the theorists, for being ddisappointed by that?


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