Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 3rd, 2018, 8:04 pm

ptdebate wrote:
DaHeckIzDat wrote:
ESauce wrote:And not every flat character is bad writing. If the character is important to the story it needs to be well rounded, a flat character is perfectly fine when the character exists for the sake of plot. Which was clearly the case here.


No, that's not clearly the case here. They spent the first movie building him up to be Kylo Ren's Palpatine, a very big part of the story. You can't just write him off as a plot device after all that! Even if it was their intention for Kylo to kill him and take his place from the start, there has to be some kind of payoff for all that foreshadowing and buildup they gave you. It's like if the Marvel movies spent all this time building Thanos up as the ultimate bad guy, and then had Loki off him and take his place the first time he makes an appearance. No payoff! Major disappointment!


I think the point Esauce was trying to make is that Snoke is not an important character like Palpatine (or Thanos). He is merely an obstacle for Kylo Ren to overcome. TLJ was intended not to mirror ESB but instead to break the mold, allowing the series to go in new directions. There is significance not only in Kylo Ren's hostility toward's Snoke, but also in the writer's own hostility towards the character.

Snoke does not have much screentime in TFA either. The endless anticipation and theorizing about Snoke's identity over the past two years has made people start thinking that the movie was implying something when really it wasn't.

For me, the scene did have a massive dramatic payoff but not because of Snoke. It's because of the significance of Kylo Ren killing of his master (and the person standing in the way of him achieving ultimate power). The director wasn't aspiring for the type of scene you are describing. He was trying to do the exact opposite, and executed it flawlessly. Notice how when the light saber ignites the camera briefly capture's Snoke's reaction, but immediately shifts in focus to Kylo and Rey, even while Snoke is falling in two in the background. The camera is cluing us in to the important thing happening on screen, which is Kylo and Rey's reactions to what has just happened.


The mistake you're making is thinking that all that couldn't be done while still giving the character any, well, character. You seem to think that making him as flat as a sheet of paper is unavoidable just because he was turned into a throwaway character at the last second, but throwaway characters aren't built up like they're going to be important characters! Thanos and Snoke are exactly the same in that regard, except hopefully Marvel's directors will be smart enough not to throw away their ultimate bad guy just because they don't feel like using him anymore. Again, it's not that what the director wanted to do was bad, it's that he handled it horribly. It was anticlimactic and unsatisfying. We, the audience, the people who have supported Star Wars with our wallets and the hours of our lives for decades, deserve a proper payoff for the kind of buildup Abrams gave us in the first movie.

That's how storytelling works. Once the gears are in motion, you don't get to just stop them because you changed your mind halfway through the project, or because you don't like the way the last guy was doing things. You have to follow through and make do with what you've already started. Snoke was obviously intended to be much more than a throwaway character, so don't expect the fans to accept what they did with him just because it's Star Wars. Star Wars is one of the most famous and successful franchises in the world, and it deserves better treatment than this!

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ptdebate
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ptdebate » January 3rd, 2018, 8:40 pm

DaHeckIzDat wrote:The mistake you're making is thinking that all that couldn't be done while still giving the character any, well, character. You seem to think that making him as flat as a sheet of paper is unavoidable just because he was turned into a throwaway character at the last second, but throwaway characters aren't built up like they're going to be important characters! Thanos and Snoke are exactly the same in that regard, except hopefully Marvel's directors will be smart enough not to throw away their ultimate bad guy just because they don't feel like using him anymore. Again, it's not that what the director wanted to do was bad, it's that he handled it horribly. It was anticlimactic and unsatisfying. We, the audience, the people who have supported Star Wars with our wallets and the hours of our lives for decades, deserve a proper payoff for the kind of buildup Abrams gave us in the first movie.

That's how storytelling works. Once the gears are in motion, you don't get to just stop them because you changed your mind halfway through the project, or because you don't like the way the last guy was doing things. You have to follow through and make do with what you've already started. Snoke was obviously intended to be much more than a throwaway character, so don't expect the fans to accept what they did with him just because it's Star Wars. Star Wars is one of the most famous and successful franchises in the world, and it deserves better treatment than this!


First off, I'm really loving the spirited debate here so thanks for that :).

I understand your point and I think you are correct viewing it from a certain angle. But artistically speaking, the director was taking the approach of deliberately NOT delivering the payoff you were expecting. All of this is in the service of the story's theme, which is the past doesn't matter. If you look at RJ's style in his other movies, it's apparent that everything he did in TLJ was deliberate. Some people love it, some people hate it.

Talking about what fans deserve to see is really just another way of talking about fan service. TLJ is not a movie made for the fans. It's not a movie made for everyone. It's a movie with a specific objective of reframing a lot of the staples of Star Wars (the Force, being a Jedi/force user, good vs. bad) in a much larger and more inclusive context.

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 3rd, 2018, 10:33 pm

ptdebate wrote:
First off, I'm really loving the spirited debate here so thanks for that :).

I understand your point and I think you are correct viewing it from a certain angle. But artistically speaking, the director was taking the approach of deliberately NOT delivering the payoff you were expecting. All of this is in the service of the story's theme, which is the past doesn't matter. If you look at RJ's style in his other movies, it's apparent that everything he did in TLJ was deliberate. Some people love it, some people hate it.

Talking about what fans deserve to see is really just another way of talking about fan service. TLJ is not a movie made for the fans. It's not a movie made for everyone. It's a movie with a specific objective of reframing a lot of the staples of Star Wars (the Force, being a Jedi/force user, good vs. bad) in a much larger and more inclusive context.


I support the idea of experimenting with storytelling, but they need to keep it out of franchises like Star Wars. It's fine for standalone films that are representing nothing but the director's own imagination (like, say, Eraserhead), but Star Wars is bigger than that. RJ was playing with someone else's toys when he made this movie, and he didn't respect that fact. I'm not saying that it has to be a predictable paint-by-numbers snorefest, but I don't think that deliberately circumventing the audience's expectations like he did was right. Not with something as iconic and historic as Star Wars. A plot twist is one thing, going out of your way to avoid giving your viewers what they want is another.

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Stalvern
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Stalvern » January 3rd, 2018, 11:08 pm

Snoke is important because he's running the entire bad-guy show until 2/3 of the way through VIII. Jeez-o-Pete.

ESauce
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ESauce » January 3rd, 2018, 11:19 pm

DaHeckIzDat wrote:
ptdebate wrote:
First off, I'm really loving the spirited debate here so thanks for that :).

I understand your point and I think you are correct viewing it from a certain angle. But artistically speaking, the director was taking the approach of deliberately NOT delivering the payoff you were expecting. All of this is in the service of the story's theme, which is the past doesn't matter. If you look at RJ's style in his other movies, it's apparent that everything he did in TLJ was deliberate. Some people love it, some people hate it.

Talking about what fans deserve to see is really just another way of talking about fan service. TLJ is not a movie made for the fans. It's not a movie made for everyone. It's a movie with a specific objective of reframing a lot of the staples of Star Wars (the Force, being a Jedi/force user, good vs. bad) in a much larger and more inclusive context.


I support the idea of experimenting with storytelling, but they need to keep it out of franchises like Star Wars. It's fine for standalone films that are representing nothing but the director's own imagination (like, say, Eraserhead), but Star Wars is bigger than that. RJ was playing with someone else's toys when he made this movie, and he didn't respect that fact. I'm not saying that it has to be a predictable paint-by-numbers snorefest, but I don't think that deliberately circumventing the audience's expectations like he did was right. Not with something as iconic and historic as Star Wars. A plot twist is one thing, going out of your way to avoid giving your viewers what they want is another.


I too must say add I love the debate. And I think everyone had been respectful and keeping criticism to the movie and not hurling insults at each other despite the obvious passion on both sides. I appreciate that.

Anyway, I respectfully disagree with the fact that the director shouldn’t have been so bold because he’s “playing with someone else’s toys”. The fact that there is such an oversaturation of franchise movies right now is exactly why I want to see directors be bold with them. The Force Awakens was a fine movie but because it gave the fans exactly what they wanted it also gave the fans exactly what they expected, which makes it an enjoyable movie but sort of boring to me.

With 500 marvel superhero movies and now 500 Star Wars movies in the pipeline, I would be happy to see more of them take as many chances as The Last Jedi did. You may not like The Last Jedi, but aren’t you sick of seeing the same telegraphed storylines over and over again? Taking chances like this is sure to polarize the audience, but for the people it works for it makes for a fantastic movie experience, as opposed to just another enjoyable movie. I take it that the Star Wars franchise is pretty important to you (as it is to me), but maybe next time a franchise is daring like this it will be one that you’re not so invested in and you’ll be able to enjoy the movie as a fantastic movie rather than see everything it did wrong as a service to the franchise.

Also, I would be perfectly happy to see Thanos killed off immediately onscreen. I would find that unexpected and hilarious. Forgive me because I have no knowledge of marvel characters outside the movies, but that character, and the way they’ve been tying all the movies together with infinity stones, just seems so dumb to me. Is he going to collect all the chaos emeralds and morph into super sonic in the next movie?

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » January 4th, 2018, 12:04 am

ESauce wrote:
DaHeckIzDat wrote:
ptdebate wrote:
First off, I'm really loving the spirited debate here so thanks for that :).

I understand your point and I think you are correct viewing it from a certain angle. But artistically speaking, the director was taking the approach of deliberately NOT delivering the payoff you were expecting. All of this is in the service of the story's theme, which is the past doesn't matter. If you look at RJ's style in his other movies, it's apparent that everything he did in TLJ was deliberate. Some people love it, some people hate it.

Talking about what fans deserve to see is really just another way of talking about fan service. TLJ is not a movie made for the fans. It's not a movie made for everyone. It's a movie with a specific objective of reframing a lot of the staples of Star Wars (the Force, being a Jedi/force user, good vs. bad) in a much larger and more inclusive context.


I support the idea of experimenting with storytelling, but they need to keep it out of franchises like Star Wars. It's fine for standalone films that are representing nothing but the director's own imagination (like, say, Eraserhead), but Star Wars is bigger than that. RJ was playing with someone else's toys when he made this movie, and he didn't respect that fact. I'm not saying that it has to be a predictable paint-by-numbers snorefest, but I don't think that deliberately circumventing the audience's expectations like he did was right. Not with something as iconic and historic as Star Wars. A plot twist is one thing, going out of your way to avoid giving your viewers what they want is another.


I too must say add I love the debate. And I think everyone had been respectful and keeping criticism to the movie and not hurling insults at each other despite the obvious passion on both sides. I appreciate that.

Anyway, I respectfully disagree with the fact that the director shouldn’t have been so bold because he’s “playing with someone else’s toys”. The fact that there is such an oversaturation of franchise movies right now is exactly why I want to see directors be bold with them. The Force Awakens was a fine movie but because it gave the fans exactly what they wanted it also gave the fans exactly what they expected, which makes it an enjoyable movie but sort of boring to me.

With 500 marvel superhero movies and now 500 Star Wars movies in the pipeline, I would be happy to see more of them take as many chances as The Last Jedi did. You may not like The Last Jedi, but aren’t you sick of seeing the same telegraphed storylines over and over again? Taking chances like this is sure to polarize the audience, but for the people it works for it makes for a fantastic movie experience, as opposed to just another enjoyable movie. I take it that the Star Wars franchise is pretty important to you (as it is to me), but maybe next time a franchise is daring like this it will be one that you’re not so invested in and you’ll be able to enjoy the movie as a fantastic movie rather than see everything it did wrong as a service to the franchise.

Also, I would be perfectly happy to see Thanos killed off immediately onscreen. I would find that unexpected and hilarious. Forgive me because I have no knowledge of marvel characters outside the movies, but that character, and the way they’ve been tying all the movies together with infinity stones, just seems so dumb to me. Is he going to collect all the chaos emeralds and morph into super sonic in the next movie?


Believe it or not, I'm only a casual Star Wars fan. But I am an (amateur) author, and something about this movie and what RJ did with it just rubbed me the wrong way, you know? Like, the actual writing and telling of a story is what's super important to me.

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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ESauce » January 4th, 2018, 12:50 am

Interesting. I’m an amateur author myself. I’ve actually written a l screenplay that I have no hopes (nor intentions) of ever getting made and hope to one day write one that a studio would have interest in. I love the movie because of its writing. To me it’s daring and is the type of movie I would only dream of writing if given a franchise like Star Wars. Funny how differently we see it.

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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby bluenote » January 4th, 2018, 10:48 am

Just saw this and I loved it! Couple of thoughts:

- Loved that Snoke called out Kylo Ren at the beginning, basically telling him what all Star Wars fans were thinking: How could he not beat Rey who had never picked up a light sabre before, to get rid of the mask and that he's still a child.

- Loved the final scene with Luke. I thought it was a great way to kill him off, and to me anyway, it was unexpected. I thought he would have been killed by Kylo or just simply battled Kylo to a draw. I was not expecting that he was force projecting himself. And to me, it was time to kill off Luke. It's time for the next generation of star wars heroes to take center stage.

- Was also surprised that Snoke manipulated both Rey and Kylo. Loved that twist! Also was surprised how quickly Snoke was killed. I thought for sure he'd be in the next chapter.

- Wasn't too crazy on the Leia going through space thing. I liked the idea, but I think it was just poorly executed.

- Wasn't crazy on the casino thing either, but hey, they need new planets and locations.

I really need to watch this again though, I'm curious if I'll like it as much now that I know all the twists.

Really enjoyed it though.

I understand some of the criticism of this movie, but really none of that took away any of the enjoyment for me.

I'm not going to give my ranking of the films though. To me, Star Wars films are like Beatles' albums. I enjoy each of them in their own way and don't feel the need to rank them. This one is one of my favourites though.

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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby VideoGameCritic » January 4th, 2018, 5:45 pm

My friend at work said Luke didn't really die.
He said Luke saw a ship in the distance (in front of the sun) and teleported to it.
Apparently he left his robe behind.
It's going to be an awkward beginning to the next movie when Luke appears buck naked on that ship.

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Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Voor » January 6th, 2018, 9:31 am

It’s important to remember that this is a bridge movie between TFA and whatever the next one is. So some things that don’t make sense in TLJ May in a few years (like the point of the casino scene).


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