Story vs Plot in Video Games

[scotland171]

E.M. Forster explained how he saw the difference between plot and story.  "The King died and then the Queen died" is a plot while "The King died and then the Queen died from grief is a story". 

The plot is the sequence of events, or the physical journey - the what and where.  The story is the emotional or spiritual journey - the why and how and to whom - why characters do what they do and to whom, and how characters change.

Compare a movie like James Bond in Goldfinger to Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan.  Goldfinger, a James Bond thriller, is an exciting gadget laden, quotable, hammy, lots of fun movie that is all plot, very little story.  Very minor character development, and since Bond is unkillable, we really care for no one in the film - even the girl killed early in the movie is more a work of art, then an emotional experience.  The plot is: Dashing Hero plays cat and mouse with Bigger than Life villain and his associates in a high stakes game of greed and murder on both sides of the Atlantic.   Can video games have exciting plots? 

Wrath of Khan is much the same kind of movie, with gadgets and quotes and hammy acting and a lot of fun.  The plot goes from a group of survivors, led by a man seeking vengeance, attain a powerful weapon, leading to a group of beloved heroes into conflict with them, and a pyrrhic victory.  The story however is about the relationships of mostly three people to the central hero, Kirk - Khan, the Ahab who sees Kirk as the foe to gauge his own greatness against, Spock, who sees in Kirk the emotional bond that transcends his upbringing, and Kirk with himself, facing his reputation of his glorious maverick younger days exploring the galaxy now that it seems to be firmly behind him.   By the end of the movie, we care about Khan, Kirk and Spock and what happens to them.   That ending is still sad, decades later.  Can video games have engaging stories?

So, Miyamoto, creator of things like Ocarina of Time, says he is concerned about designers wanting to touch people's hearts he seems to be talking about story, not plot.  Miyamoto is a master of his craft, but the industry is big enough to have many masters with different opinions.

Are video games (or tabletop RPGs) critically impaired because we are the protagonists, and since we know this is just a game, there can be no character development, no emotional investment? No matter how cinematic or exciting the plot, no matter if there are various endings, there can be little in the way of emotional story? That video games can't make us care about the other characters in the game?, let alone be a vehicle for our own growth? Is this what Ebert meant on his video games are not art thing?

My question to you is: Is Miyamoto (and maybe Ebert) right?  What is your opinion?

[DaHeckIzDat1]

I'm a bit divided on this subject. As I've said numerous times before, I'm almost all about story when I play video games. But there's a certain type of story that works best in video games: the kind that is constantly moving forward. People play video games to, well, play them. While I don't mind long cutscenes, they have to be actively moving the plot forward. Such as, in Final Fantasy 13, after beating Barthandelus the first time, you get a very long cutscene of them being taunted and then an epic dogfight as they try to escape the sanctum. It's long, but it's action packed and is moving the plot from one scene to the next. Now, take the beginning of Star Wars, with Luke buying the droids, arguing with his uncle, and doing his chores. It's okay for a movie, but I'd be bored to sleep if it was in a video game. Here's a better example: the mind numbingly long cutscene before the final battle in MGS2. It was long, it was boring, an dc it consisted of two guys standing in one place reminiscing about the past and explaining how they're going to kill each other. By the time it finally ended, I just turned the game off because I didn't even care about the fight anymore.

[Vexer1]

I strongly disagree that there can be no emotional investment or character development, in your mind you may be the protagonist but you're still playing as someone else in most games.

There are tons of video games with exciting plots- Mass Effect, GTA series, Dead Island, Dead Rising, Saints Row, Far Cry, Sleeping Dogs, Watch Dogs, Deus Ex, Alpha Protocol, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, COD, Medal of Honor, Uncharted, Syphon Filter, Resident Evil, Silent Hill, The Suffering, Rage, Borderlands, Evil Within, etc

I personally really like story in the majority games as I don't feel it handicaps them in any way, the only games that I find have truly bad stories are games that also have terrible gameplay(I.E. Vampire Rain, Ride to Hell Retribution).

I do agree that sometimes the Metal Gear Solid series does overdo it on the cutscenes(that ending in MGS3 just seemed to drag on and on), though I think it's a bit silly to turn a game off just cause you don't like the cutscenes(you do have the option to skip them after all).

While I do love games that constantly move, i'm also fine with games occasionally slowing down for quieter more intimate scenes, as that helps me get more attached to the characters.

Ebert is wrong if you ask me, I personally don't think he had any idea what he was talking about.(though I do remember him saying that he played games like Braid and did appreciate them, even though he still wasn't sure about games being art).

[Sut1]

This is a reason why I think Bioshock is so wonderful you have no idea what happened to rapture why your there or what the world and its oddball characters consists of.
The game skilfully slowly reveals all to you during gameplay with recordings you find and unobtrusive radio conversations.

Regarding character development MGS does a good job in fleshing Snake out as soldier with a heart but accepting he was designed for war.

But I am divided sometimes I just want to play a game and cause havoc and have a good time, which GTA games excell at. The reason those games sell so well is it gives you options, play the story based missions or go off and do want you want in its world, race, gamble, play pool, eat, decorate your pad. Great game design and quality gaming worlds.

[Segatarious1]

The problem is completely time. You are competing against gameplay with your story.

So the game should tell the story. And if you can add narrative in non intusive ways by voice over narration or radio chatter, you are not ruining the game world. Game should always focus on their own world and the atmosphere and interaction of that world, not in traditional cinema type story telling that intrudes on gameplay.

The other problem is quality. Quite a lot of games are wrecked by intrusive story that is very poorly done. Keep in mind most directors and writers in gaming are in gaming because they did not make it in higher/respectable levels of story telling in other mediums.

SO story in games is oa self made probelm with a self made solution most major game makers will continue to ignore, they believe they can solve the problem through more advertising and brain washing their stalwart supporters.

[ptdebate1]

[QUOTE=Segatarious]The problem is completely time. You are competing against gameplay with your story.

So the game should tell the story. And if you can add narrative in non intusive ways by voice over narration or radio chatter, you are not ruining the game world. Game should always focus on their own world and the atmosphere and interaction of that world, not in traditional cinema type story telling that intrudes on gameplay.

The other problem is quality. Quite a lot of games are wrecked by intrusive story that is very poorly done. Keep in mind most directors and writers in gaming are in gaming because they did not make it in higher/respectable levels of story telling in other mediums.

SO story in games is oa self made probelm with a self made solution most major game makers will continue to ignore, they believe they can solve the problem through more advertising and brain washing their stalwart supporters.[/QUOTE]

For once, I actually agree with you. The cool thing is that there are lots of great examples of stories told through gameplay, not despite it. Take Telltale and Bioware's games for example, where the story *is* the gameplay.

[DaHeckIzDat1]

I don't mind long cutscenes. If I did, I'd hate Final Fantasy and the Tales series. My problem comes when they go on for too long without being interesting. People love the Devil May Cry games for the gameplay, but I never could get into them because of the cheesy story.

[scotland171]

Thanks for the responses. I know we have discussed stories in games before, but I would like you to think of that more as plot.

I would like expansion not on gameplay versus plot, but plot (the action, the mystery) versus story (the characters motivations and development). I think those are what Ebert and Miyamoto were saying were out of reach for video games.

In Donkey Kong we have a setting in the construction site, a protagonist in Mario, an adversary in Donkey Kong, a conflict in rescue the princess, and a series of actions. Donkey Kong has all these elements of plot, which all help confine and define the gameplay. A simple game and one with reknowned gameplay, and note there is plot here. Plot that enhances gameplay.

There is no story. No one is different at any point in the game. No one cares if Mario is barreled over. No one even cares about Mario or DKs motivation. No story.

As pointed out, this is awesome for entertainment. Blow stuff up. Beat next level. Rinse lather repeat.

Can it be otherwise. Can a game make you cry? Can it make you care? Can it change your mind or perspective? Can we find characters with internal struggles?

[Vexer1]

Sega- nonsense, the majority of people in gaming aren't there because they "couldn't find jobs in a higher levels of story-telling in other forms of medium", you have no actual proof that this is in any way true.

I also do not believe story telling is a "self-made problem" in any way.

I personally love the cutscenes in the DMC series, Dante is just so damn hilarious!

[Vexer1]

I personally think they were both wrong, story is most definitely not "out of reach" of video games as the Mass Effect series demonstrated, i'd argue that story is better then many of the stories in most films and TV shows released nowadays.

Nintendo has their own style, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone else should follow their lead.  

Not all games should be about nothing more then mindless entertainment, some games need to try and do more then just entertain, and Ubisoft is a company that accomplishes that very well, as i'm playing Far Cry 4 right now and so far i'm extremely invested in the story and main character and can't wait to see what happens next.