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Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 21st, 2015, 1:28 pm
by gleebergloben1
[QUOTE=scotland17]

The early 80s were just like fast forward evolution of great arcade games.  Look at great games like Galaga and Wizard of Wor in 1981 - fun, but very simple in graphics and gameplay.  Now look at that list of games from 1984 and compare.  Wow. Just astonishing.    Every trip to the arcade might find a new game out front to tempt you in.

All this growth and variety meant that small business owners could never keep up with the next big thing, and the next big thing brought in the quarters.  Sure, a classic Pac-Man was paid off and still made you money, but new machines were a gamble that you had to take to bring in the kids. That, plus too many small businesses offering the same experience really did it.  Maybe the societal pressures saying kids only places like arcades and roller rinks were bad hurt too, or the feeling it was just a big laser tag fad. 

Beyond 1984, I remember 1985 still being a good year with games like Gauntlet, Hang On, Space Harrier, and Road Blaster, which are respectable but compared to the 1984 list, shocking.  By 1986, the arcades were getting harder to find, and units hung around in the arcades much longer. Sega was still in the game I think, but it was also basically a way to get exclusive games for their console.

At least that was my experience in the state I grew up in the US.   How was yours?[/QUOTE]

Scotland, 1986 to 1993 was a period where my gaming was almost nil. It makes sense because I was going to college and more interested visiting my girlfriend on the weekends, but looking back it surprises me how little I played.

My console gaming was non-existent during this time. In fact, in 1992 I remember seeing an NES at a friend's house and thinking, "Oh yeah, I think I've heard of that console before." As for arcade gaming, my friends and I would go to the local arcade at our university and play Hat Trick, Chexx, Crime Fighters, and the pinball game Eight Ball Deluxe (great, great game by the way).

In another thread recently I think it was ptdebate and Rev talking about their non-playing video game days, and 1986 to 1993 would be mine.

Then in 1993 or 1994 I picked up an SNES while I was working in Tokyo, Japan, and I've been gaming pretty much off and on ever since.

But for me, the early 1980's arcade and home console scene is one I'll never forget.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 22nd, 2015, 3:58 am
by Jon1
I just can't fathom how someone can say there was nothing memorable to come out of the Jaguar, 3do, or Neo Geo. It just reeks of them not giving those systems a chance and believing the tripe about only a couple pioneering consoles putting out anything of note. Give me a freaking break. In fact, me and my friends have been playing the Jag lately and it's fantastic, Tempest 2000. Then you have stuff like Zool 2 (a guilty pleasure of mine), AVP and Iron Soldier. There's several other good games too. People say, oh the Jag only had a few good games. I believe with the CD addition and homebrews and all sorts of unreleased games that finally did get released, it's a serious alternative to the PS1 (Gasp). But even if you subscribe to the "ooh it only had a few good games", how many people are playing tons of games for the N64 and PS1 anymore? The vast majority of people are probably only playing a few, not dozens, probably the same amount that you could find on the Jaguar. There's no denying it, and I'll say it. I'd rather have a Jag than a PS1, probably even an N64, call me crazy or whatever, I could give a darn. And as far as a Neo Geo, don't even get me started, it's astounding how you can say that didn't have anything different to offer. And I'd rather have a Neo Geo than both a PS1 and N64. You want to ignore how terribly the PS1 is aging and just reminisce on how amazing its RPG library is or whatever. How about the fact that I get a headache when playing it. Despite arguments to the contrary, I still think that most people don't care for that system anymore, especially if RPG's don't "tickle your fancy". Do people even remember how terrible a time 97-98 was? And they say 94-95 was a rough time. HA.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 22nd, 2015, 10:37 am
by ptdebate1
[QUOTE=Jon]I just can't fathom how someone can say there was nothing memorable to come out of the Jaguar, 3do, or Neo Geo. It just reeks of them not giving those systems a chance and believing the tripe about only a couple pioneering consoles putting out anything of note. Give me a freaking break. In fact, me and my friends have been playing the Jag lately and it's fantastic, Tempest 2000. Then you have stuff like Zool 2 (a guilty pleasure of mine), AVP and Iron Soldier.

....

And I'd rather have a Neo Geo than both a PS1 and N64. You want to ignore how terribly the PS1 is aging and just reminisce on how amazing its RPG library is or whatever. How about the fact that I get a headache when playing it. Despite arguments to the contrary, I still think that most people don't care for that system anymore, especially if RPG's don't "tickle your fancy". Do people even remember how terrible a time 97-98 was? And they say 94-95 was a rough time. HA.[/QUOTE]

Hey, if you're having fun, that's really what's most important anyway. Ignore the naysayers and play what you like!

My final word is this: 

What if we were to do an experiment and look at the PS1 as a 2D-platformer system exclusively. No other games on the PS1 exist. What would we come up with?

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Mega Man X4, X5, and X6
Klonoa
Rayman
Tomba 1 and 2
Strider 2
Silhouette Mirage
Mega Man 8

And if I were to add 3D platfomers to that?

Spyro series
Crash series
Rayman 2
The Oddworld games
Heart of Darkness
Gex and its sequels
Heart of Darkness
Ape Escape

Just to name the ones that come to mind.

It already beats the Jaguar, 3DO, and Neo Geo combined.

What if we were to do the same experiment for driving simulators? Zany multiplayer games like Twisted Metal and Crash Team Racing? Fighting games like Marvel vs. Capcom, X-Men vs. Street Fighter, the Tekken series, Soul edge, and Tobal no. 1?

No matter what category you restrict it to, the PS1 wins on variety and availability. 





Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 22nd, 2015, 12:42 pm
by Oltobaz1
The Neo Geo is a 2D arcade system. Plain and simple.
It was never meant to compete with Sega and Nintendo, much less
Sony's 1995 Playstation. Interestingly though, some of its franchises
were ported on other systems like said Playstation, the Saturn...
they just weren't as great. In terms of 2D vs fighting, this system is second to none,
it won't of course have anything Capcom, yet games like Street Fighter Zero
or X Men vs Street Fighter weren't more than arcade CPS2 ports ultimately,
inferior ports, that is. The Neo Geo AES games, on the other hand, are unaltered
quality wise if compared to the original Neo Geo MVS arcade system. It's a niche
system for arcade enthusiasts, with very little in the way of racers, much less RPGs...
Then again, it was never supposed to. Despite their qualities, the Jaguar/3DO/CDI underperformed
and are considered commercial failures. Same can't be said about the NG.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 22nd, 2015, 1:13 pm
by ptdebate1
[QUOTE=Oltobaz]The Neo Geo is a 2D arcade system. Plain and simple.
It was never meant to compete with Sega and Nintendo, much less
Sony's 1995 Playstation. Interestingly though, some of its franchises
were ported on other systems like said Playstation, the Saturn...
they just weren't as great. In terms of 2D vs fighting, this system is second to none,
it won't of course have anything Capcom, yet games like Street Fighter Zero
or X Men vs Street Fighter weren't more than arcade CPS2 ports ultimately,
inferior ports, that is. The Neo Geo AES games, on the other hand, are unaltered
quality wise if compared to the original Neo Geo MVS arcade system. It's a niche
system for arcade enthusiasts, with very little in the way of racers, much less RPGs...
Then again, it was never supposed to. Despite their qualities, the Jaguar/3DO/CDI underperformed
and are considered commercial failures. Same can't be said about the NG.
[/QUOTE]

There is a notable exception though--PS1 has the best version of Metal Slug 2.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 24th, 2015, 2:48 pm
by Jon1
That's an incredibly pedestrian list of 2d platformers for the PS1. I don't know who plays them anymore, but I'm sure tons do, right? To be blatantly honest, I think the Jaguar beats it with Zool 2 and Rayman. The Jag, along with the 3do, Neo Geo, and Turbographx 16 have all aged immaculately, and their games haven't lost any of its luster. Time has been very kind to these systems. In fact, people are still making games for the Neo Geo and the Jag has an active homebrew scene. There are people who LOVE those systems, and are passionate about it. How about the PS1? It's aging like crap. Nobody cares about it anymore, and if it weren't for it's backward compatibility, it'd be aging even worse. Like I said earlier, it's lunacy to say that the industry recovered so that it could have this renaissance in 96. Whatever. 

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 24th, 2015, 5:44 pm
by ptdebate1
[QUOTE=Jon]That's an incredibly pedestrian list of 2d platformers for the PS1. I don't know who plays them anymore, but I'm sure tons do, right? To be blatantly honest, I think the Jaguar beats it with Zool 2 and Rayman. The Jag, along with the 3do, Neo Geo, and Turbographx 16 have all aged immaculately, and their games haven't lost any of its luster. Time has been very kind to these systems. In fact, people are still making games for the Neo Geo and the Jag has an active homebrew scene. There are people who LOVE those systems, and are passionate about it. How about the PS1? It's aging like crap. Nobody cares about it anymore, and if it weren't for it's backward compatibility, it'd be aging even worse. Like I said earlier, it's lunacy to say that the industry recovered so that it could have this renaissance in 96. Whatever. [/QUOTE]

Symphony of the Night has been re-released like three or four times. People do speed runs and challenge runs of it and the Mega Man, Spyro, and Crash games, all of which still have great sales numbers via PSN almost twenty years later.

And Zool 2? The Jaguar version of Rayman? Who's still playing a game on a platform that sold less than half a million units in the first place? Zool 2 is fine if you're only comparing it to other Jaguar games, but on the Mega Drive, SNES, or PS1 it would have a harder time standing out.

How can you say with a straight face that the Jag, a system we agreed is mostly early 3D games, has "aged immaculately," while simultaneously maintaining that the PS1, which has far more 2D and sprite-based games, has aged "like crap"?

None of this seems to correspond to reality...

Bringing us back around to the topic at hand--were the mid 90s bad years in gaming? The console space was overrepresented in hardware but underrepresented in software. There were some stellar PC releases like Diablo, Doom, and Warcraft 2, but the "bit war" among console manufacturers had led to a singularity where overengineered devices and distastefully agressive marketing campaigns ruled the day.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 26th, 2015, 1:47 pm
by Jon1
As far as Zool 2, there was a lot of stuff on the screen at once, none of those systems (SNES, Genesis) could have handled it, and I don't even know if the PS1 could. The Jaguar had better 2d capabilities than the PS1. People always talk about the Jag games that look like nothing better than the 16 bit consoles, but they never talk about Super Burnout, Tempest 2000 (the Saturn and PS1 ports don't even come close), or even something like Zool 2. Heck, I'll take this a step further and there's Neo Geo games that the PS1 struggled with. Viewpoint was a horrible port. And as far as my comment that it's aged immaculately (along with systems like the Neo Geo and Turbografx 16), cartridge based consoles generally age well, certainly better than a lot of CD based systems. Jaguar games still look great, Tempest 2000 is a perfect example. I don't think anyone will argue that the Neo Geo and Turbografx 16 haven't aged well, because they still look fantastic too. Those are systems that stand the test of time, not the PS1. People don't talk about it and no one cares like they do the systems I just mentioned. No one is really interested in getting into PS1 gaming, but there's people that are fascinated by the Neo Geo and Turbografx 16, and really interested in discovering their game libraries. I think you can tell by how much people love those systems that at the very least they were overlooked.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 26th, 2015, 7:29 pm
by HardcoreSadism1
[QUOTE=Jon]Load of crap about who cares/doesn't care about what hardware[/QUOTE]

The Jaguar isn't the worst system or even bad, but it's the most pretentious attempt by Atari to recover from the 7800's deafened lifespan.

Jaguar had development kit bugs, on top of RAM and GPU restricting bugs that made developing for the Saturn look like a walk in the park.

It's basically a miracle 2D Schmups can even run without stuttering.

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Posted: January 27th, 2015, 9:54 am
by ptdebate1
I have an idea, Jon.

Since we disagree so vehemently about these games, let's do something constructive: we each recommend some games for the other to play and then compare notes--if  you're up to it, that is. What three Jaguar games should I play? Here are the three PS1 games I think you should play: 

Metal Slug X
Mega Man X5
Einhander