Why has there been no crash like in 1983

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scotland171
Posts: 816
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby scotland171 » January 14th, 2015, 1:59 pm

[QUOTE=BanjoPickles]... A lot of people don't know this, but there WAS almost another crash in the mid-90's. It took Donkey Kong Country and the release of the PS1 to revive the industry. [/QUOTE]

Now I can read Jon did not *like* how video games were changing in the mid 90s, but that is not he same thing as an industry crash or downturn.    However, Banjo here is saying that the mid 90s was a time of threat for the industry.  I don't recall this, in fact, I recall the opposite. The mid 90s did see a recession before the tech boom, but video games did rather well in spite of this.  

Ed Barton of "Screen Digest" in an interview on Gamasutra said this: "Recent history demonstrates that the video games industry is largely recession-proof...This was amply demonstrated during the last severe recession in the early 90's and at the beginning of this century when the industry effortlessly and gracefully expanded despite economic recession.  the video games market in the UK certainly wasn't dampened by the more severe recession in the early 90's, and expanded on the back of the success of Sega's Mega Drive and the SNES.  A quarter of a million sales of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 in 1992 and a further quarter of a million sales of Donkey Kong Country a couple of years later attest to the robustness of the industry during periods of wider economic malaise.'

Does anyone have a good tale of the threat Banjo Pickles is referring to in the 90s?
  


Sut1
Posts: 789
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby Sut1 » January 14th, 2015, 3:05 pm

[QUOTE=scotland17]Does anyone have a good tale of the threat Banjo Pickles is referring to in the 90s?
  

[/QUOTE]

No, I remember it rather differently, at least here in the UK it was the early/mid 90's that we finally joined in with the rest of the world and embraced console gaming, leaving our ST's and Amiga's behind.

In fact according to Wikipedia early 90's games such as Aladdin on the Mega Drive outsold Fable on the Xbox so the sales figures definitely don't lean to any sort of crash.

PinMike86661
Posts: 86
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby PinMike86661 » January 14th, 2015, 5:14 pm

Gaming has proven itself to remain a very strong media format with Sony's PS4 being the top console, PC and mobile gaming rising, and Nintendo holding their own despite their struggle. I can't imagine the industry crashing other than Japan, which has unfortunately been undergoing in recent years. If anything, I think gaming will be more intertwined in computers and mobile is console gaming ever dies out, but I honestly don't see that happening with Sony's PlayStation platforming being a major success, Microsoft's buttloads of cash, and Nintendo holding steady.

BanjoPickles1
Posts: 1321
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby BanjoPickles1 » January 14th, 2015, 7:05 pm

[QUOTE=scotland17][QUOTE=BanjoPickles]... A lot of people don't know this, but there WAS almost another crash in the mid-90's. It took Donkey Kong Country and the release of the PS1 to revive the industry. [/QUOTE]

Now I can read Jon did not *like* how video games were changing in the mid 90s, but that is not he same thing as an industry crash or downturn.    However, Banjo here is saying that the mid 90s was a time of threat for the industry.  I don't recall this, in fact, I recall the opposite. The mid 90s did see a recession before the tech boom, but video games did rather well in spite of this.  

Ed Barton of "Screen Digest" in an interview on Gamasutra said this: "Recent history demonstrates that the video games industry is largely recession-proof...This was amply demonstrated during the last severe recession in the early 90's and at the beginning of this century when the industry effortlessly and gracefully expanded despite economic recession.  the video games market in the UK certainly wasn't dampened by the more severe recession in the early 90's, and expanded on the back of the success of Sega's Mega Drive and the SNES.  A quarter of a million sales of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 in 1992 and a further quarter of a million sales of Donkey Kong Country a couple of years later attest to the robustness of the industry during periods of wider economic malaise.'

Does anyone have a good tale of the threat Banjo Pickles is referring to in the 90s?
  

[/QUOTE]

“By 1995, the video game industry appeared to be dying. According to the toy market-tracking NPD Group, the U.S. console market netted $4.55 billion in 1993. By 1995, that number was down to $3.07 billion. The NPD Group’s TRST data showed a 17-percent drop in 1994, followed by a 19-percent drop in 1995.”

Excerpt From: Kent, Steven. “The Ultimate History of Video Games.” Three Rivers Press, 2010-06-16. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

I remember it being an interesting period for gaming. 3DO failed, Jaguar did even worse, and Sega was juggling seven systems at once (Sega Genesis, game gear, Pico, Saturn, Sega CD, 32X, and even the Master System in certain regions). There were some great games, but there was also a glut of generic platformers, fighting games, beat-em-ups, etc. The thing I look back on is the hardware. If an abundance of crappy software brought the industry to it's knees in the 1980's, then it was an over abundance of crappy hardware in the 90's (CD-I, 3DO, Atari Jaguar, 32X, Sega CD, the rare failure of the Virtual Boy, Game.Com, etc.). Think about all of the gaming options during that period! Nes wasn't discontinued until 1994, you had snes, Sega with all of it's different systems, Turbo Grafx, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, CD-I, NEO Geo, Game Boy, Virtual Boy, Fm Towns Marty (was that ever released in America?). To make matters worse, Trip Hawkins came up with the stupid idea to license the hardware to different companies, so you had the same system, just manufactured by different companies (confusing to your average consumer).

FinalLapTwinkie1
Posts: 175
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby FinalLapTwinkie1 » January 14th, 2015, 8:37 pm

BanjoPickles hit it smack down the middle. I still recall going into Best Buy and seeing 3DO, 32X and CD-I being slashed to low low prices. Same thing happened in 1984 and 1985. There was such a glut of systems and games.

Also looking at the 1990's it was the cool thing to own more then one system. Genesis fans bought the Super Nintendo and SNES fans bought the Genesis. Some bought the Turbo Graphix-16 as well. Maybe that helped keep sales going and possibly averted a crash. Who knows for sure?

Are any gamers doing that now, buying more then one system or have systems become so interchangeable that owning more then one is redundant? I mean outside of exclusives is it worth it to own a Playstation 4, Xbox One and Wii U at the same time?

Jon1
Posts: 378
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby Jon1 » January 16th, 2015, 2:51 pm

I don't remember anything about the industry being in a crisis in like 94-95. It actually was an amazing time for video games, I could give a darn who thinks otherwise. The magazines were all about the upcoming PS1 and "Ultra 64". And they were doing reviews for all sorts of systems, no one had a monopoly. Now don't get me wrong, I was so freaking mad that the SNES and Genesis were still putting out kiddie garbage like Donkey Kong with graphics from the stone age, when systems like the Neo Geo, 3do, and Jaguar were so better than the same old crap. Granted, I remember enjoying Yoshi's Island, but cmon, I was so sick of the same old 16 bit crap graphics that were 1 step up from the NES by 95. It became a joke. I remember my friends at school in like 95 talking about how much they loved DK2 and me thinking how pathetic it was that basically we were only a step up from the NES. It was freaking 1995. But, and this is a big but (no pun intended)(maybe), you also had the 3do, Turbographx, Neo Geo, and Jaguar. Not to mention, we were still at the tail end of what I call the golden age of PC gaming. And, the arcades were incredible back then, it was so much fun. Also, 3d was on the horizon and everyone was excited, so it was anything but a tough time for the industry. Say what you want, but the Jag had Tempest 2000, the Neo Geo had arguably its best years in 94-95, and of course the other systems too (3do, Turbographx, etc.). It's such a far cry from today's industry, which has been dominated by Sony FOREVER. Do you have any idea how many football games there were back then for instance. There were like a million franchises, you had Madden, Gameday, Quarterback Club, VR Football, NCAA Gamebreaker, NCAA, I can't even name all of them. How many are there now? We know the answer, only Madden. And now the only people with a hint of originality are the ones doing homebrews for old systems. But the only advanced 2d homebrews are on the Dreamcast, which doesn't have crisp graphics, so basically it's still not anywhere near where it should be. You have the Neo Dev Team, every game they make looks like crap, they don't take advantage of the Neo's color palette, and it's the same ugly colors every game. The Native demo, which looked unbelievable on the Jaguar, was released a couple years ago as Sturmwind, and predictably, the graphics took a huge nosedive as the Dreamcast is anything but the ultimate 2d machine. The graphics, which in the Native demo were clean and probably the best looking 2d game ever, ended up looking like crap, because the Dreamcast doesn't have clean graphics.

scotland171
Posts: 816
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby scotland171 » January 16th, 2015, 4:48 pm

Thanks Banjo. That would link the mid 90s to 83 in being consumer confusion for a major purchase in hardware. As a retrogamer, I have enjoyed things like the 32x I would have been heartbroken buying when initially sold.

In this way, by bringing market dominance, Sony not only helped mainstream video games but brought investment and consumer confidence to bolster the market in a crisis.

Given Banjo's insight, the modern market heavily dominated by 3 consoles and Windows, with 3 of those 4 sharing many games, is good for the industry's health. After all, a consumer paying $400 for a console wants confidence its a solid investment.

The downside is that the times of crisis, with all the choices, were also exciting and innovative. We still speak fondly of the pre playstation years and there was something for everyone.

BanjoPickles1
Posts: 1321
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby BanjoPickles1 » January 16th, 2015, 6:18 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]I don't remember anything about the industry being in a crisis in like 94-95. It actually was an amazing time for video games, I could give a darn who thinks otherwise. The magazines were all about the upcoming PS1 and "Ultra 64". And they were doing reviews for all sorts of systems, no one had a monopoly. Now don't get me wrong, I was so freaking mad that the SNES and Genesis were still putting out kiddie garbage like Donkey Kong with graphics from the stone age, when systems like the Neo Geo, 3do, and Jaguar were so better than the same old crap. Granted, I remember enjoying Yoshi's Island, but cmon, I was so sick of the same old 16 bit crap graphics that were 1 step up from the NES by 95. It became a joke. I remember my friends at school in like 95 talking about how much they loved DK2 and me thinking how pathetic it was that basically we were only a step up from the NES. It was freaking 1995. But, and this is a big but (no pun intended)(maybe), you also had the 3do, Turbographx, Neo Geo, and Jaguar. Not to mention, we were still at the tail end of what I call the golden age of PC gaming. And, the arcades were incredible back then, it was so much fun. Also, 3d was on the horizon and everyone was excited, so it was anything but a tough time for the industry. Say what you want, but the Jag had Tempest 2000, the Neo Geo had arguably its best years in 94-95, and of course the other systems too (3do, Turbographx, etc.). It's such a far cry from today's industry, which has been dominated by Sony FOREVER. Do you have any idea how many football games there were back then for instance. There were like a million franchises, you had Madden, Gameday, Quarterback Club, VR Football, NCAA Gamebreaker, NCAA, I can't even name all of them. How many are there now? We know the answer, only Madden. And now the only people with a hint of originality are the ones doing homebrews for old systems. But the only advanced 2d homebrews are on the Dreamcast, which doesn't have crisp graphics, so basically it's still not anywhere near where it should be. You have the Neo Dev Team, every game they make looks like crap, they don't take advantage of the Neo's color palette, and it's the same ugly colors every game. The Native demo, which looked unbelievable on the Jaguar, was released a couple years ago as Sturmwind, and predictably, the graphics took a huge nosedive as the Dreamcast is anything but the ultimate 2d machine. The graphics, which in the Native demo were clean and probably the best looking 2d game ever, ended up looking like crap, because the Dreamcast doesn't have clean graphics.[/QUOTE]

As somebody who devoured games like Donkey Kong Country in the mid-90's (I was born in '81), I don't really understand your complaint. Yeah, Jaguar had Tempest 2000, but that was one game. How many games on the Jaguar looked subpar, even by 16-bit standards? Cyber morph looked like garbage compared to Starfox, Kasumi Ninja looked worse than Mortal Kombat 2 on snes, and we won't even talk about White Men Can't Jump.

Back on topic

There was variety back then, yes, but it wasn't the good sort of variety. If you were an American who wanted to play Snatcher in 1993, you had to be own both a genesis and a Sega CD. What if there's nothing else for the Sega CD that piqued your interest (a real possibility)? Same with the 3DO. I wanted to play Gex, but I didn't have the money to pitch out for a system, and very few games on it grabbed my attention. You had some rare, wonderful experiences that were exclusive to overpriced experiments.

Not so much today.

Even if you're of the mindset that the Wii U sucks, nobody can deny that there's some genuine quality in the games released for it. It's not a "1 good game amongst a sea of crap" situation. Back in the mid-90's, Sega released the Saturn and it lasted all of, what, three years? The Dreamcast lasted about two, at least in America. Even the worst failures in modern gaming last longer than the failures of yesteryear. The Vita has been out for almost three years; the Wii U has been out for over two. All modern systems are given a Grace period to develop a somewhat sizeable collection of quality software. It definitely has to do with the deep pockets of the big three. Sega didn't have those deep pockets, nor did Atari, or the 3DO company, regardless of Trip Hawkins's prior success with EA.

scotland171
Posts: 816
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby scotland171 » January 17th, 2015, 8:14 am

Thanks Banjo. I like you. You make good points.

Back in 1983, Warner had deep pockets, and Mattel probably did, but they chose to fold instead of doubling down.

I agree Nintendo survives on being quality, but I will add in the family niche too. Quality alone,especially as its just as expensive as other games and systems.

It sounds like console video games are a mature industry dominated by deep pockets and big names, like automobiles. Change happens, but its pretty slow, but it can happen. Big names with long histories can still fail,,and newcomers can enter, but its hard.

So, is this a good thing? Should we hope a deep pocket company like Time Warner, ABC Disney, Google, Apple, etc stays out of the console hardware market?

Seems like Windows is still dominating desktops and laptops, and so it can play many modern console games as well as a host of other games from the past. Yet the two formats seem to be co-existing remarkably well. Could any decisions by Microsoft threaten the console market? For instance, what if they kept true to the vision of the xboxone as revealed, and it failed? If there were only Sony and Nintendo making consoles, would PCs rise up as the best choice? Especially if games played on a PC but streamed to your television, making it essentially a console experience?

And what about mobile gaming. Its got two dominant operating systems and a low bar for software development. Could mobile, at some point, maybe with improved game inputs, or streaming to the television, threaten the console market?

ptdebate1
Posts: 909
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Why has there been no crash like in 1983

Postby ptdebate1 » January 17th, 2015, 12:26 pm

Just to riff on what Banjo said--late SNES games like Donkey Kong Country actually look a lot better than all but two Jaguar games. Also--just a point on accuracy--the Neo Geo is a 16-bit system. It has the same CPU as a Genesis.


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