The Derailment of the 3d Genre

General and high profile video game topics.
Atarifever1
Posts: 3892
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Atarifever1 » February 28th, 2015, 9:16 pm

[QUOTE=JWK] Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. [/QUOTE]

Maybe not against the Jaguar.  Against every major 8 bit system, 16 bit system, the Saturn, and every major system that followed the PS1 generation, it sure as heck does.  It aged worse than almost any other system in the history of gaming.  Doesn't need defending?  Nope,  It's nearly indefensible. [tongue] Ugly system, from an overwhelmingly ugly generation.

HardcoreSadism1
Posts: 526
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby HardcoreSadism1 » February 28th, 2015, 9:57 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]I've outlined my arguments already in this thread. It's really astounding to me that ptdebate thinks Die Hard Trilogy looks "really good". Because to me those graphics look like dog **** and an example of why the PS1 seriously should've never gotten off the drawing board.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I think you hate the PS1 because of its success, not its substance...

Dave1
Posts: 25
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Dave1 » February 28th, 2015, 10:42 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]an example of why the PS1 seriously should've never gotten off the drawing board.[/QUOTE]

Never should've gotten off the drawing board for...whose benefit? For yours?

Yeah, plenty of the games haven't aged well, but there are plenty of nice looking games on the system. Plus it's home to some of the best and most influential games ever. Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy 7-9 + Tactics, Crash, Gran Turismo, and Castlevania: SotN, plus countless other great games.

And what does this "digitized look" mean? I understand what it means in terms of 2D games, like Mortal Kombat, where the characters were digitzed sprites based off real people. But I've never heard anyone refer to 3D graphics as being "digitized," nor have I ever gotten a headache from anything other than poor frame rate.

JWK1
Posts: 904
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby JWK1 » February 28th, 2015, 11:08 pm

[QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=JWK] Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. [/QUOTE]

Maybe not against the Jaguar.  Against every major 8 bit system, 16 bit system, the Saturn, and every major system that followed the PS1 generation, it sure as heck does.  It aged worse than almost any other system in the history of gaming.  Doesn't need defending?  Nope,  It's nearly indefensible. [tongue] Ugly system, from an overwhelmingly ugly generation.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. You're focusing on the easiest thing to pick apart; a pioneering 3d system's visuals. Don't fall prey to the same thing as Jon. Just because a system's visuals are technically impressive doesn't mean the games are good and vice versa. I completely agree that the 5th generation was ugly. But the PS1's library makes an absolute mockery of the N64's and Saturn's. You can claim that the visuals haven't aged well, but I play the systems 2d action/adventure games (Symphony of the Night, Megaman X4, Strider 2, etc.), shmups, the occasional 3d platformer that *has* aged well (Crash Bandicoot 3), hidden gems, and the vast, vast library of JRPGs. The system has an excellent library, even today. It didn't sell 100 million for nothing, folks.

Atarifever1
Posts: 3892
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Atarifever1 » March 1st, 2015, 7:01 am

[QUOTE=JWK][QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=JWK] Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. [/QUOTE]

Maybe not against the Jaguar.  Against every major 8 bit system, 16 bit system, the Saturn, and every major system that followed the PS1 generation, it sure as heck does.  It aged worse than almost any other system in the history of gaming.  Doesn't need defending?  Nope,  It's nearly indefensible. [tongue] Ugly system, from an overwhelmingly ugly generation.[/QUOTE] I disagree. You're focusing on the easiest thing to pick apart; a pioneering 3d system's visuals. Don't fall prey to the same thing as Jon. Just because a system's visuals are technically impressive doesn't mean the games are good and vice versa. I completely agree that the 5th generation was ugly. But the PS1's library makes an absolute mockery of the N64's and Saturn's. You can claim that the visuals haven't aged well, but I play the systems 2d action/adventure games (Symphony of the Night, Megaman X4, Strider 2, etc.), shmups, the occasional 3d platformer that *has* aged well (Crash Bandicoot 3), hidden gems, and the vast, vast library of JRPGs. The system has an excellent library, even today. It didn't sell 100 million for nothing, folks. [/QUOTE]

But for 2D games, the Saturn does make a mockery of it.  The PS1 was not set up to do 2D, and it shows.  There are rare exceptions (as there are rare 3D exceptions on the Saturn or Jaguar), but those are definitely the exceptions rather than the rule.  Still collecting PS1 for 2D is, to me, like collecting the N64 for RPGs.  

In any case, I am only half serious about the PS1 being indefensible.  I don't like it, I hate the controller and most of the games, but I can see that for people with certain gaming preferences, it's probably pretty awesome.  Also, it has Bushido Blade, which is on my top 20 games of all time list, so there's that.  Also, when are they going to finally start making Bushido Blade again?

Oltobaz1
Posts: 1605
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Oltobaz1 » March 1st, 2015, 7:24 am

Bushido Blade 1&2 were great. The PS2 was graced with Kengo, in many
ways a continuation. Only played the first one, which I'd highly recommend.
You get to train under various schools of swordmanship, defy dojos, meditate
under waterfalls... It approaches samurai lore in a fantastic and realistic fashion,
a zen experience, if I say so myself .

BanjoPickles1
Posts: 1321
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby BanjoPickles1 » March 1st, 2015, 12:20 pm

[QUOTE=JWK][QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=JWK] Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. [/QUOTE]

Maybe not against the Jaguar.  Against every major 8 bit system, 16 bit system, the Saturn, and every major system that followed the PS1 generation, it sure as heck does.  It aged worse than almost any other system in the history of gaming.  Doesn't need defending?  Nope,  It's nearly indefensible. [tongue] Ugly system, from an overwhelmingly ugly generation.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. You're focusing on the easiest thing to pick apart; a pioneering 3d system's visuals. Don't fall prey to the same thing as Jon. Just because a system's visuals are technically impressive doesn't mean the games are good and vice versa. I completely agree that the 5th generation was ugly. But the PS1's library makes an absolute mockery of the N64's and Saturn's. You can claim that the visuals haven't aged well, but I play the systems 2d action/adventure games (Symphony of the Night, Megaman X4, Strider 2, etc.), shmups, the occasional 3d platformer that *has* aged well (Crash Bandicoot 3), hidden gems, and the vast, vast library of JRPGs. The system has an excellent library, even today. It didn't sell 100 million for nothing, folks. [/QUOTE]

I agree. I've always seen the PS1 as being to the 3D age what the 2600 was to the 2D era. Jon, how can you tell us, with a straight face, that the Jaguar was the better system? How many games, that first arrived on the Jaguar, still see new installments today? Rayman, that's it! Now, how many franchises were born/revitalized on the PS1? Tekken, Suikoden, Twisted Metal, Metal Gear Solid, Syphon Filter, Resident Evil, Medal of Honor, Silent Hill, Crash, Gran Turismo, etc. Did the Jaguar have an rpg as massive, influential, or as good as Final Fantasy VII? Did the system even have an rpg? Did the system have an action-adventure game as intoxicating as Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? The Jaguar had three fighting games, none of which were very good. The PS1 had Street Fighter Alpha 1-3, MK3/Trilogy/4, Tekken 1-3, Soul Edge, Rival Schools, Toshinden 1-3. 3D shooters. The Jaguar had Cybermorph, Battlemorph, and a few others that I don't remember being very good. Even a game like Cybermorph was trumped by Starfox on snes, which was way more visually appealing. The PS1 had Warhawk and Ace Combat. FPS's. The Jaguar had Doom and AvP. The PS1, whew boy: a superior port of Doom, Final Doom, Hexen, Powerslave, Medal of Honor 1-Underground, Quake, etc. Sports? Strategy? Puzzle? Multi-player? Platformer? No matter the genre, the PS1 wins.

Oltobaz1
Posts: 1605
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Oltobaz1 » March 1st, 2015, 1:09 pm

Agreed, of course. Still, while i haven't played both games in ages, I seem to remember Cybermorph as the superior game in terms of visuals when compared to Starfox. Starfox was probably more fun to play though.

Rev1
Posts: 1777
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Rev1 » March 1st, 2015, 1:24 pm

[QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=JWK][QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=JWK] Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. [/QUOTE]

Maybe not against the Jaguar.  Against every major 8 bit system, 16 bit system, the Saturn, and every major system that followed the PS1 generation, it sure as heck does.  It aged worse than almost any other system in the history of gaming.  Doesn't need defending?  Nope,  It's nearly indefensible. [tongue] Ugly system, from an overwhelmingly ugly generation.[/QUOTE] I disagree. You're focusing on the easiest thing to pick apart; a pioneering 3d system's visuals. Don't fall prey to the same thing as Jon. Just because a system's visuals are technically impressive doesn't mean the games are good and vice versa. I completely agree that the 5th generation was ugly. But the PS1's library makes an absolute mockery of the N64's and Saturn's. You can claim that the visuals haven't aged well, but I play the systems 2d action/adventure games (Symphony of the Night, Megaman X4, Strider 2, etc.), shmups, the occasional 3d platformer that *has* aged well (Crash Bandicoot 3), hidden gems, and the vast, vast library of JRPGs. The system has an excellent library, even today. It didn't sell 100 million for nothing, folks. [/QUOTE]

But for 2D games, the Saturn does make a mockery of it.  The PS1 was not set up to do 2D, and it shows.  There are rare exceptions (as there are rare 3D exceptions on the Saturn or Jaguar), but those are definitely the exceptions rather than the rule.  Still collecting PS1 for 2D is, to me, like collecting the N64 for RPGs.  
[/QUOTE]

It's really not, though... The N64 had 1 good RPG game, Tactics Ogre 64. The PS1 has a small percentage of 2D games but still enough that it is worth collecting for. When you're library of games is 1200+ even a small amount of 2D titles are worth the cheap pick up price of the console. The PS1 is also much cheaper than the Saturn to pick up games for, which makes even their slightly worst 2D graphics worth it if you don't have $80 for a Saturn and $50+ for even some of the cheaper games on the library.

Besides, saying that the games that were solely on the PSX are not worth picking up because the Saturn was available, with better 2D graphics, is silly. Do people still like NES games, SNES games, Genesis games? Yes, definitely. In the case of your logic, why pick those up when the PS1 had better graphics (2D wise) than those consoles? Because there are games that were only available for the console or they just like the console.

Also, Jon, you're argument makes no sense. I guess this is one of your monthly rants on how the PS1 destroyed the world of gaming... Good times.

Oltobaz1
Posts: 1605
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Postby Oltobaz1 » March 1st, 2015, 3:16 pm

Yeah, the N64 was seriously lacking in the RPG department, yet Ogre Battle 64 is a fantastic game. It was never released in Europe, had to import an US copy, damn fine game... that's basically all Nintendo had though, when Sony had so much more. A lot of these RPGs were made in 2D (the Suikodens, Valkyrie Profile...) or at least had some 2D elements like Xenogears. Most of these games weren't even available on the Saturn, and they certainly exhibit wonderful graphics that stood the test of time, especially on a good all fashioned crt TV. As far as 3D, some people might be surprised how good it actually looks on such tvs (Trinitron), but I digress. Then, of course, you also have 2D games available on both systems, mostly arcade ports, but not limited to that. Most of the time, if money isn't an issue, such games should be picked up on the Saturn, they just look and, sometimes, play better. There are exceptions though, the Playstation port of "Donpachi" actually being superior to the Saturn's. And, of course, Symphony of the Night has more on its plate on the Saturn, but you're limited to Japanese, a deal breaker to some.

Two systems worth owning for 2D enthusiasts, between both consoles exclusives and Sega's generally superior arcade ports. Fine looking 3D games too (get yourselves a Trinitron guys, I insist), but that's not the subject at hands. Having said that, the Saturn would be my system of choice, were I strictly interested in 2D, it just has more to offer in that field, provided you have access to its fantastic Japanese Library, that is.


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