Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

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jon
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby jon » December 6th, 2017, 8:21 pm

The first time I ran through it in the 1990's it was amazing, one of those games you didn't want to go to sleep. While it's still good, I think the problem is that it doesn't have any go to levels. I'm talking about levels that blow your mind. Nothing really sticks out. A game like Banjo Kazooie I can name a few like Rusty Bucket Bay and the Tropical Island.

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Gentlegamer
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Gentlegamer » December 6th, 2017, 9:12 pm

Retro STrife wrote:Just to provide a counterpoint to the SM64 love....
The Critic's B+ review for Super Mario 64 has gotten some backlash through the years, but count me among those that thinks it's directly on point. Some say SM64 hasn't aged well. Well, I played through the whole game around 2000 and already thought it was overrated then, well before it aged. I can understand why it was beloved in 1996--it was head and shoulders over anything else out there, so I have no issue with the praise it got at that time. But with the benefit of hindsight (even 4 years of hindsight in 2000), I thought of it as just an above-average platformer. And nowadays, forget it.. I consider it a novelty at best, rather than a game that you can recommend as a quality playthrough. However, N64 games in general haven't aged great, so I think the Critic's B+ for the game is perfectly fair when comparing SM64 to other N64 games. I wouldn't even fault him if he dropped it to a B. I give the VGC credit for seeing through the hype, and not drinking the Kool-aid, by giving it a B+ in 2003, despite the pressure to change it over the years.


Hype doesn't survive for two decades, and to call the supporters of Super Mario 64 cultists is absurd.

Games don't age, we do. And if you thought it was a mediocre game or just above average platformer in 2000 (and you don't say compared to what), it is your taste and judgement that is faulty.

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Retro STrife
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Retro STrife » December 6th, 2017, 11:39 pm

Gentlegamer wrote:Hype doesn't survive for two decades,


You're right- hype is the wrong word, since that's more of a short-term thing. But I can't think of the right word, so I'm gonna stick with it. But, of course undue fanaticism can survive for two decades. Happens all the time with video games. Another game I played for the first time around 2000 was Final Fantasy VII. While SM64 was revolutionizing platformers, Final Fantasy VII revolutionized RPGs. I loved FF7 and it was one of my favorite games. But if I played it in 2007, or 2017, would I feel the same way about it? Tough to say for sure, but probably not. I haven't played it recently, but most people say it hasn't aged well. Maybe it was an A+ in 1997, but a B range game in 2017--just like SM64. Some games are timeless, like Super Mario Bros 3 and SM World. Those games will always be good. Some games are great in their heyday, but they aren't timeless. SM64 is not timeless IMO.

Gentlegamer wrote:and to call the supporters of Super Mario 64 cultists is absurd.


It sure is, which is why I never said that. While my post may have sounded a bit harsh, in fairness I did still call it a B+ game. If a B+ is offensive to people, then they may be cultists after all..

Gentlegamer wrote:it is your taste and judgement that is faulty.


You're right, I'm sure taste plays a role in it. It plays a role for everyone. As I've mentioned before, I personally find 3D Mario games to be overrated, despite giving them many chances. And it all started back around 2000, when I was really looking forward to SM64 and then felt disappointed when I actually played it. It was good, but did not live up to all the build up that I had heard.

Gentlegamer wrote:And if you thought it was a mediocre game or just above average platformer in 2000 (and you don't say compared to what)


As for the "compared to what" part... Well, one problem I always have with 3D Mario is that I feel like the Mario characters and games have the personality of a dead trout. Even if Mario has better design, I've always preferred my platformers to have personality, so from that era I prefer games like Sonic Adventure, Banjo-Kazooie, NiGHTS into Dreams, and the Crash Bandicoot series. I have more fun with those, even if Mario is "technically" better.

jon
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby jon » December 7th, 2017, 1:06 am

I think looking back a lot of the reason I loved SM64 when it came out was that it was a really good game and it seemed at that time that there were going to be a lot of mindblowing N64 games to come. Let me just say, that DID NOT happen. And I haven't used caps in years.

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Atariboy
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Atariboy » December 7th, 2017, 6:44 am

I still love Super Mario 64 and replay it regularly. The game still controls beautifully, the worlds are interesting and varied, the music is great, etc.

And if you fire it up on the Wii or Wii U Virtual Console, it can even still look good. The game is rendered in 480p versus 240p on the original hardware and the awful anti aliasing blur filter is gone (Not to mention the benefits of a superior component or HDMI video connection). It gives the game a very clean and attractive appearance. I suggest the Wii download in particular, since the brightness is turned way down on the Wii U's own N64 emulator.

Even the camera has never bothered me. I don't need to constantly adjust it and when I do, I don't even think about it. Even on the excellent DS conversion, it seems like second nature to just use the touch screen camera controls to get a better view.

I haven't played Super Mario Odyssey, but Super Mario 64 remains my favorite 3D platformer.

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Stalvern
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Stalvern » December 7th, 2017, 8:34 am

Retro STrife wrote:As for the "compared to what" part... Well, one problem I always have with 3D Mario is that I feel like the Mario characters and games have the personality of a dead trout. Even if Mario has better design, I've always preferred my platformers to have personality, so from that era I prefer games like Sonic Adventure, Banjo-Kazooie, NiGHTS into Dreams, and the Crash Bandicoot series. I have more fun with those, even if Mario is "technically" better.

This is the first actual "problem" you've mentioned, and it's an extremely superficial one. This would be a more productive discussion if you actually said what you don't like about the game, rather than just harping on how it somehow "is not timeless" without saying why. You're setting this up to be a meaningless shouting match.

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Retro STrife
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Retro STrife » December 7th, 2017, 11:17 am

Stalvern wrote:This is the first actual "problem" you've mentioned, and it's an extremely superficial one. This would be a more productive discussion if you actually said what you don't like about the game, rather than just harping on how it somehow "is not timeless" without saying why. You're setting this up to be a meaningless shouting match.


I didn't hear anyone shouting. Rarely have on these forums here. I thought we were just talking. But that's the thing with Mario games-- it's tough to talk about them without people having visceral reactions to the conversation. One person could say it's a good B+ game nowadays, and revolutionary in 1996, but not timeless; and someone else might somehow get upset at that. I'm not saying anyone here is like that, but I do think there are unfortunately a lot of gamers in the world like that when it comes to Mario. Along with Zelda, it's the only series that gets that strong of a reaction when it isn't universally praised.

To answer your question though, I have nothing major to harp on about SM64, at least when judging it by 1996 standards. The camera is an issue, but that's common for all platformers of that era. I am simply saying that there is something about it, when I played it in 2000 and more recently, that I don't find it as fun as other people and don't understand the fuss as much. Not that I dislike it and think it's bad -- just that I feel "meh" about it. Boredom is a subjective feeling and it's tough to put your finger on why it occurs. Maybe it's because I didn't play it in 1996, so there is no blinding by nostalgia. Either way, I think the fun went down significantly since the NES / SNES days. The lack of personality to 3D Mario games is part of it (and I disagree about that being superficial to the fun of a game), but there is more to it than that. Maybe I will pop the game in my N64 sometime soon to get a better recollection, since I'm working off old memories at the moment.

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Gentlegamer
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Gentlegamer » December 7th, 2017, 11:41 am

Retro STrife wrote:
Gentlegamer wrote:
Gentlegamer wrote:and to call the supporters of Super Mario 64 cultists is absurd.


It sure is, which is why I never said that. While my post may have sounded a bit harsh, in fairness I did still call it a B+ game. If a B+ is offensive to people, then they may be cultists after all..


You shouldn't use phrases like 'drink the kool-aid' without knowing their origins and contexts (the phrase should refer to flavor-aid).

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Stalvern
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Stalvern » December 7th, 2017, 12:44 pm

Retro STrife wrote:I didn't hear anyone shouting. Rarely have on these forums here. I thought we were just talking.

That's why I said "setting this up to be". I've been on the Internet before; I know how discussions go when people just talk past each other without engaging the actual questions.

Retro STrife wrote:To answer your question though, I have nothing major to harp on about SM64, at least when judging it by 1996 standards. The camera is an issue, but that's common for all platformers of that era. I am simply saying that there is something about it, when I played it in 2000 and more recently, that I don't find it as fun as other people and don't understand the fuss as much. Not that I dislike it and think it's bad -- just that I feel "meh" about it. Boredom is a subjective feeling and it's tough to put your finger on why it occurs. Maybe it's because I didn't play it in 1996, so there is no blinding by nostalgia. Either way, I think the fun went down significantly since the NES / SNES days. The lack of personality to 3D Mario games is part of it (and I disagree about that being superficial to the fun of a game), but there is more to it than that. Maybe I will pop the game in my N64 sometime soon to get a better recollection, since I'm working off old memories at the moment.

I didn't play it in 1996 either; I think my first time would also have been in the early 2000s. You're "working off old memories", but it looks like they aren't even memories of the game, just vague ideas of impressions that you got. And that's apparently enough to waltz in and tell everyone to "forget it" if they think the game might still be worth playing (or, God forbid, are still playing it) and that it's "a novelty at best", along with a faint whiff of self-congratulation for how you "already thought it was overrated then". I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier, but I actually am getting irritated now by how condescendingly dismissive you were without anything to back that up.

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Retro STrife
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Re: Super Mario 64 (Nintendo 64)

Postby Retro STrife » December 7th, 2017, 6:45 pm

Stalvern wrote:along with a faint whiff of self-congratulation for how you "already thought it was overrated then"


Eh, that was actually just to point out that my impressions of the game were based on 2000 standards (i.e., before the game aged), rather than 2017 standards. Not sure why I'd congratulate myself for thinking a game is overrated.

Stalvern wrote:You're "working off old memories", but it looks like they aren't even memories of the game, just vague ideas of impressions that you got. And that's apparently enough to waltz in and tell everyone to "forget it" if they think the game might still be worth playing (or, God forbid, are still playing it) and that it's "a novelty at best", along with a faint whiff of self-congratulation for how you "already thought it was overrated then". I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier, but I actually am getting irritated now by how condescendingly dismissive you were without anything to back that up.


Ummm, I feel like I just entered the Twilight Zone... Like, aren't we all working off "old memories" on these boards?? It's a retro gaming forum. If we're all supposed to replay every old game before commenting with our thoughts, then we're not going to have many posts here. I trust my recollection of the last time I played this game, which wasn't that many years ago.

But joking aside, you gotta relax, Stalvern. You are literally making my point about fanatical Mario fans, practically losing your mind over there because I'm not singing Mario 64's praises. Like if someone loves the game then you're cool, but if they don't then they better provide you with a 10-page dissertation until you're satisfied with the reasons?... Not reasonable. I know it's your favorite series (based on what you've posted in other topics), but not everyone has to love it as much as you. I stated my personal reasons for liking but not loving it (btw, how many times do I have to emphasize that I never called it a bad game?), and that's good enough.

Plus, in fairness, you're the last person to complain about all these things after your comments in the "Changing too much or too little" topic: viewtopic.php?f=5084&t=16457 . Among a few other topics.

But look, I don't argue with anyone here (debate, sure), but I feel like this topic is somehow making me look argumentative when I was just meaning to state a counterpoint opinion.. so we're cool and I'm leaving it at that after this post and not going back and forth in this topic any further.


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