Missing Jaguar Games

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ptdebate
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby ptdebate » January 24th, 2018, 11:25 pm

jon wrote:If I recall correctly (and trust me I'm not your historian) you weren't even around in the mid 90's. I didn't grow up on Mario 64, you did.


By the way, Jon, I did a quick search on YouTube and found a much longer segment of gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vofghW0DYM

There are quite a few moving objects on screen. That's pretty impressive. But the graphics are just animated, pre-rendered objects. Kind of like Donkey Kong Country. Is that really the pinnacle of 2D graphics? When games like Ori and the Blind Forest exist?

jon
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby jon » January 25th, 2018, 12:15 pm

Native has my favorite 2d graphics of all time. Maybe not the best but my favorite. The Jaguar is the only system from the 5th gen that's graphics don't look totally obsolete. I'm not talking about the quality of the games, but the graphics in games like Hover Strike and I-War, and Iron Soldier. Even Trevor Mcfur has amazing graphics for the time although the game sucks. Also, I have a soft spot for the underdogs at this point in history, 1994-1996. My favorite game franchises that I played every day got discontinued. And then everything got so complicated. That's why I don't mind at all that the Jag couldn't have games as big as the PS1. The Jag could be viewed as the last underdog system ever.

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Stalvern
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby Stalvern » January 25th, 2018, 2:54 pm

jon wrote:Native has my favorite 2d graphics of all time. Maybe not the best but my favorite.

Sure, reasonable enough...

jon wrote:The Jaguar is the only system from the 5th gen that's graphics don't look totally obsolete. I'm not talking about the quality of the games, but the graphics in games like Hover Strike and I-War, and Iron Soldier. Even Trevor Mcfur has amazing graphics for the time although the game sucks.

...What?

jon
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby jon » January 25th, 2018, 4:11 pm

How about, the Jag is the only system from the 5th who's graphics I feel has aged the best. Now I don't have to take on legions of PS1 fans who were drawing in their notebooks in gym class.

Sut
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby Sut » January 25th, 2018, 5:01 pm

Native does indeed look impressive and wouldn’t look out of place on the Saturn. The Jaguar like the Saturn looks far more comfortable with 2D games.

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Stalvern
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby Stalvern » January 25th, 2018, 5:53 pm

jon wrote:How about, the Jag is the only system from the 5th who's graphics I feel has aged the best.

I know what you said; I'm just trying to understand it. Everything about the PlayStation's "totally obsolete" graphics that's aged badly - the blocky models and clunky animation, the pixelated textures, the short draw distances, you name it - is much, much worse on the Jaguar, along with pervasive choppiness and a shortage of textures at all. Even the 3DO could have run a game like Hover Strike smoothly with no problems, but the Jaguar can't even keep the frame rate in the double digits. I'm not trying to prove you wrong here, just explaining why I have a hard time wrapping my head around what you're saying. Please explain what you love about the Jag's graphics and hate about the PlayStation's, because I honestly want to know.

jon wrote:Now I don't have to take on legions of PS1 fans who were drawing in their notebooks in gym class.

This is the second time in this thread that you've gone out of your way to belittle others.

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ptdebate
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby ptdebate » January 25th, 2018, 6:07 pm

jon wrote:How about, the Jag is the only system from the 5th who's graphics I feel has aged the best. Now I don't have to take on legions of PS1 fans who were drawing in their notebooks in gym class.


Find me a 3D jag game that looks better than Vagrant Story. And a 2D one that looks better than SaGa Frontier 2. Just saying.

pacman000
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby pacman000 » January 25th, 2018, 6:08 pm

Stalvern wrote:
jon wrote:Native has my favorite 2d graphics of all time. Maybe not the best but my favorite.

Sure, reasonable enough...

jon wrote:The Jaguar is the only system from the 5th gen that's graphics don't look totally obsolete. I'm not talking about the quality of the games, but the graphics in games like Hover Strike and I-War, and Iron Soldier. Even Trevor Mcfur has amazing graphics for the time although the game sucks.

...What?


jon wrote:How about, the Jag is the only system from the 5th who's graphics I feel has aged the best. Now I don't have to take on legions of PS1 fans who were drawing in their notebooks in gym class.


Such arguments seem to happen on AtariAge often enough. Usually it's one younger Atari fan vs. a bunch of older fans/programmers who know a bit more about the company's final years and the system's architecture. Usually results in a locked thread, so let's not indulge it here.

Stalvern wrote:
pacman000 wrote:I've thought for awhile Phase Zero looked like it had potential: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OPcFdkj0GU&t=59s As far as I know it was not released. It's not my style of game, but those smooth mountains and that texture-mapped terrain look beautiful.

That's not texture mapping; those are voxels. And very impressive ones! Compared to the big - relatively speaking! - voxel-based games of the early/mid-'90s (Comanche and CyberRace on DOS, Amok on Windows and the Saturn), it looks like it has close to the best resolution and draw distance of the bunch, except maybe for Comanche. This would have been a definite standout.
Looked up some of those games. Impressive, even today. You know what they remind me of? The Genesis Affect (Effect?) from Star Trek II. Amazing that they could create such realistic terrain in the early 90's; I almost wish more games had used voxels. I've read it's harder to create an animated character with voxels than with polygons. Is that why most games went the polygon route?

As for Phase Zero... remember it's just a demo. The Jag seems to be less than a sum of it's parts; a lot of games had good looking demos, but adding game play required too much RAM/bandwidth, so the final production versions were choppy.

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Stalvern
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby Stalvern » January 25th, 2018, 9:13 pm

pacman000 wrote:Looked up some of those games. Impressive, even today. You know what they remind me of? The Genesis Affect (Effect?) from Star Trek II.

Effect. An effect affects things.

That's polygonal, not voxel-based, but the height mapping for the mountains is procedurally generated using a similar fractal algorithm to the early voxel-based games that Lucasfilm developed for Atari's 8-bit computers (and subsequently ported to every other computer under the sun). If you aren't familiar with these fine games, you should be: Rescue on Fractalus was released first and is the most popular, The Eidolon is the most sophisticated, and Koronis Rift is a clunky, complicated mess that's great too. (If you have the time, look up the lavish manuals at Atarimania.) Rescue on Fractalus is actually relevant to the Jaguar - not only is Cybermorph essentially an (underachieving) update of it, but I also just found out about an impressive-looking homebrew remake for the Jaguar called Fallen Angels.

pacman000 wrote:Amazing that they could create such realistic terrain in the early 90's; I almost wish more games had used voxels. I've read it's harder to create an animated character with voxels than with polygons. Is that why most games went the polygon route?

They're just limited. There are big reasons that you only see them used for smoothly rolling hills, even in what heyday they had.

The main issue is that the smoothness you see in these games is because the voxels are calculated using a simple height map. This means that nothing can overhang or overlap anything else. It is possible to use them in full 3D, but it takes a lot more processing power and is incredibly inefficient compared to polygons. As it is, only the terrain can be voxels, and any moving objects have to be either sprites (in earlier games) or polygon models (in later games).

As for animation, even if we put full 3D on the table and give ourselves the opportunity, the main challenge in animating with voxels is that each frame has to be an entire model, just like how each frame in a pixel-based 2D game's animation uses an entire sprite. It's much less of a waste to simply move polygons around with a skeleton.

In any case, the way that games are now, even the ground that you walk on is always so lushly animated that voxels would be useless for anything you could actually see, and rendering them in 4K would be a complete waste of power if you wanted anything besides hills in your level design. There's also the matter of shaders, which use vector calculations that I can't imagine playing nicely with voxels. Even if voxels had gained a bigger foothold in the '90s, they'd still be obsolete today. (I believe that they're still used in medical imaging, though, since they don't have to do anything, just represent 3D space.)

[Addendum: This post used to say something very silly about voxels' efficiency before I remembered that these games use raycasting, which scales linearly in processing demand with resolution, which is the entire reason that a game like Comanche was viable in 1992 in the first place. Me dumb.]

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DrLitch
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Re: Missing Jaguar Games

Postby DrLitch » January 26th, 2018, 2:11 am

Brings back memories, I bough a Jaguar a few months after it came out, around 1994 I think. Traded my SNES (my first ever console) and games along with gardening/weeding money. I was at Junior High at the time.

Jaguar = tale of untapped potential. Has got that low polygon vibe, but does not look too bad at all. I might prefer those plain shaded polygon's to the Playstation's warped textures and N64's blurry textures. I heard they were going to release Quake and Tomb Raider on the Jaguar before it got canned. There was also a Mario 64 type game rumored for the Jag. If they had started development on them, then the Jag could not have been that far behind a PS/N64/Saturn in 3D graphics. Would definitely like to see demo's of those games on the Jag.


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