Sega Saturn in 3D

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ThePixelatedGenocide
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Joined: April 29th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » September 6th, 2020, 8:50 pm

jon wrote:Why do you not accept that it got outsold in the United States by the PS1 52 million to 1.8 million because its 3d library was significantly inferior to the PS1's?


Yeah, it had nothing to do with costing $100 more at launch.

Or pissing off retailers, and being banned from their shelves.

Or releasing Virtua Fighter in that state.

Or refusing to help third parties understand their hardware.

Everyone was just like: "I thought I was buying a Playstation for FFVII, but I guess I wanted a Mario 64 clone instead. Crash Bandicoot just isn't doing it for me."

ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 531
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » September 6th, 2020, 8:56 pm

jon wrote:This Ninpen Manmaru looks like the Sonic Jam engine. There’s no way to attack enemies or do anything fun. What have I been saying all along? I’ve been saying there’s no way to make the game fun by having enemies to attack, because it melts my brain just trying to imagine 8-bit play mechanics in 3D. Plotting X AND Y co-ordinates? At the same time?!

With an extra 1 or 0 to signal a collision and remove an object from the playfield?!!

That's more math than I can handle! Even with a calculator!

jon
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby jon » September 6th, 2020, 9:06 pm

Exactly. I knew you wouldn’t ever admit I’m right that the Saturn’s 3d output was significantly inferior to the PS1’s. You have no credibility.

You have a vendetta against me, and will not budge at all. You and Dr. Litch are so mad at me that you won’t even admit I’m right about Saturn’s 3d output being significantly inferior to the PS1’s.

It’s so obvious that’s what you and Dr. Litch are doing. You’ll never admit I’m right about anything at this point.

What are you going to say now? That this platformer could’ve made Sega competitive?

But honestly, I think your sacrificing your credibility by being so mad at me you won’t even admit the Saturn was significantly inferior to the PS1 in any aspect.

ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 531
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » September 6th, 2020, 9:12 pm

jon wrote:You have no credibility.

You have a vendetta against me. You and Dr. Litch are so mad at me tha


Oh, c'mon. I gave you an easy opening. You should have just taken the bait and complained about the Z axis.

If you're going to pretend that low polygon collision detection is hard, then you need to commit to your story.

jon
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby jon » September 6th, 2020, 9:20 pm

I stick to my word unlike you, who 2 times claimed you were done with this thread only to be so mad at me you backed off your word.

I stand by my comment that I’ll stop posting in this thread if you admit that the Saturn’s 3d output was significantly worse than the PS1’s.

But you like to ignore the obvious. Even the most ardent Saturn supporters will admit that while saying it had more potential than what was shown.

You’re being unbelievably delusional and no one should take anything you say seriously if you keep coming up with excuses for why the Saturn got outsold by the PS1 in the United States 52 million to 1.8 million.

You’re basically saying Sega got unlucky. Give me a break.
That viewpoint has absolutely no credibility. The only credible reason why the Saturn got outsold by the PS1 by such a staggering amount is because it’s 3d games were significantly worse than the PS1’s 3d games.

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DrLitch
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby DrLitch » September 6th, 2020, 9:33 pm

jon wrote:Why do you not accept that it got outsold in the United States by the PS1 52 million to 1.8 million because its 3d library was significantly inferior to the PS1's?


Okay Jon - I will give this one more go.

Regarding the first main question you have, why not take the effort and cite an article that suggests why the PS1 outsold the Saturn. These articles will have statistics, perhaps growth curves, you know the good stuff that gives us information. I know you read it somewhere so why not do me a favor and cite it for me and everyone to read. I am not being passive aggressive here. You are asking people like myself that may not have this information at hand. My answer would be an uneducated guess and I do not make those guesses. Step up to the plate, earn your keep. Take 5 mins to cite what you read. That is only fair.

Both Pixelated and myself, Pixelated more than me (in regards to evidence and citing his sources) have busted our asses here. Time for you to put some work in.


jon wrote:If you weren't ganging up on me you would've answered this question.


I will summarize my thoughts from all my posts - please do read through it this time. Yes my grammar sucks, I am an engineer who works in R&D and writes things in code or math, I got no time for Queen's English.

I surmised -

1. The Saturn kicked the bucket in 1998 but even murmurs in 1997 were suggesting Sony were going to ditch and run with something else. That is going to motivate developers a whole lot to develop great content, if at all possible on the hardware.

2. Mario 64 is Nintendo genius. Arrived fall 1996 and is different to everything before it. Sony took 2 years to catch up - it had nothing like it before. Saturn did not have even two years of existence once Mario 64 released. No way could Sega complete such a project in little over a year. To make great you need to study great. Not like Nintendo were handing out the manual for creating it.

3. In hypothetical port scenarios I mentioned you could not move Mario 64 assets over to Saturn. Saturn was not built for N64's method of rendering graphics. Neither was the Playstation for that matter. If one were to attempt a ground up development then how it turns out depends on the team, resources, and the capability of the hardware. There is only a blanket answer because there is no determinism. In the hands of the average developer I guess it would look like crap on the Saturn. I have no idea what a talented development team could do. The Saturn could push the quad numbers needed, whether it could do that, texture map, and handle the Matrix math as the little plumber ran around I do not know. The PS1 could probably do it but I say that with only 70% confidence. I told you there were no easy answers.

4. I also said both Saturn and PS1 would give the poor old N64 a good shanking when it comes to Polygon counts. N64 is no match here. Ports developed on Saturn/PS1 going over to Nintendo would equally not work - the N64 was not designed to push 100K textured polygons per second (at least not without optimization at RISC level with specific microcodes which most developers did not have access to), let alone 180K that runs on some PS1 games. The Saturn could pull around 60K-80K textured polys per second, N64 would typically do half that. The N64 cannot run Dead or Alive as it ran on the Saturn - no f**ing chance. It does not have the hardware to do it, it cannot draw enough triangles per sec to keep up. You could try a ground up redevelopment but asking me how it would look your guess is as good as mine. I guess with Factor 5's miracle microcode, with them at the healm, it would turn out better with more FX. In the hands of most other developers it would be lower poly count, blurry, and move at 15-20fps. Some fogging on backgrounds as well just for good measure.

5. I finally said that all fifth gen hardware has it's strengths and weaknesses. There was no perfect console that gen and there was no jack of all trades either. You have in your mind that the N64 was the Master of All Trades, fair due to you, believe what you want.

So the answer to why the Saturn cannot do Mario 64. My response it I do not know. Perhaps the same reason why the N64 cannot pull off Dead or Alive. Different hardwares, different methods, different constraints.

jon
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby jon » September 6th, 2020, 9:46 pm

You know what. If I need to explain to you why the Saturn’s 3d library wasn’t nearly as good as the PS1’s then maybe we shouldn’t be having this conversation. You won’t acknowledge it got outsold in the United States by the PS1 52 million to 1.8 million because of its inferior 3d library. It’s as if there’s another reason. C’mon, why do you act like it’s not that simple?

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DrLitch
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby DrLitch » September 6th, 2020, 9:59 pm

jon wrote:You know what. If I need to explain to you why the Saturn’s 3d library wasn’t nearly as good as the PS1’s then there’s no point to this conversation. I think I’ll just disregard everything you have to say from this point forward. You won’t acknowledge it got outsold by the PS1 52 million to 1.8 million because of its inferior 3d library. I’m assuming it’s acknowledged that you and Pixelated have no credibility.


What has 3D library got to do with anything?

The Switch has outsold the Xbox One. The Wii outsold the PS3. The PS2 outsold the much better Xbox. The Nintendo 3DS outsold the much better Vita. The Nintendo DS outsold the PSP.

The PS4 outsold the Switch. The PS1 outsold the N64. The SNES slightly outsold the Genesis. The NES outsold the Master System. The Amiga 500 outsold the SNES in some EU territories.

And now you are asking us why the Saturn sold less than the N64? Give me the citation you read that breaks down Saturn vs "everything else" sales so we can perhaps see the data manifest. You asking me to cite that 3D is why the PS1 outsold the Saturn when a piece of garbage like the Wii outsells the PS3. Give me a break. Cite or bust here dude, no compromise. I aint pegging my flag to a mast I cannot see.

LoganRuckman
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby LoganRuckman » September 6th, 2020, 10:00 pm

jon wrote:You know what. If I need to explain to you why the Saturn’s 3d library wasn’t nearly as good as the PS1’s then maybe we shouldn’t be having this conversation. You won’t acknowledge it got outsold in the United States by the PS1 52 million to 1.8 million because of its inferior 3d library. It’s as if there’s another reason. C’mon, why do you act like it’s not that simple?


We have literally all agreed with you that Saturn was worse at 3D. We all agree with that part Jon.
Last edited by LoganRuckman on September 6th, 2020, 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jon
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Re: Sega Saturn in 3D

Postby jon » September 6th, 2020, 10:12 pm

They haven’t admitted that though. And it was significantly worse. I said I’d stop but they won’t admit the Saturn’s 3d games were significantly worse.

I’ve even acknowledged that there’s a possibility the Saturn was capable of better 3d games.

But they won’t admit that the Saturn’s actual 3d output was significantly worse than the PS1’s 3d output.


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