Zelda: A Link Between Worlds.

[Oltobaz1]

You're as boring as ever. You are.. Error!

[HardcoreSadism1]

@Segatarious

You were looking for a reason to defend Nintendo.

[Herschie1]

[QUOTE=m0zart]Heh I especially loved the ending of this game, particularly the weird face-to-face Link has with Ravio.  I can't really say much about it as there is a bit of a weird reveal there that is not explicitly stated, only very heavily implied, and I wouldn't want to spoil it.  But it gave me a laugh.

Obviously the Dark World of ALttP is NOT the same as Lorule.  The two have similar features, but not similar enough.  Still, Zelda has never been great on its continuity.  The official timeline has three separate time streams.  Anytime game universe chroniclers have to do that, it's obvious it is due to the fact that story timelines were not particularly important to them to begin with.[/QUOTE]


I appreciate the spoiler alert. 

[m0zart1]

[QUOTE=Segatarious]Hey, you think Zelda 2 has prostitution - from the Wizards as well? Cause Link hops into their house sames as with the Healers....[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am convinced they were.  I am not convinced the Wizards were, nor do I think it is the same logic.

For the record, I also think Nabooru was promising Link sex as a special favor in OOT.  I think it's relatively obviously.

[QUOTE=Segatarious]Don't blame me, Zelda fans go in some odd directions with the game world sometimes. I thought the Ravio/Link connection was  too obvious to merit special mention, that's why I assumed you were not referring to that.[/QUOTE]

Those aren't weird directions.  Jumping to the conclusion that Link and Ravio were gay is.

In any case, I don't think the Ravio/Link connection is as obvious as you were making out.  There was really only one hint to it before the reveal (the bunny suit).  The reveal made it obvious, but that's the purpose of a reveal.  I also don't believe for a second that you thought it was obvious until that point.  Observing you over the years hasn't left me terribly impressed with your instincts.

[Segatarious1]

[QUOTE=m0zart][QUOTE=Segatarious]Hey, you think Zelda 2 has prostitution - from the Wizards as well? Cause Link hops into their house sames as with the Healers....[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am convinced they were.  I am not convinced the Wizards were, nor do I think it is the same logic.

For the record, I also think Nabooru was promising Link sex as a special favor in OOT.  I think it's relatively obviously.

[QUOTE=Segatarious]Don't blame me, Zelda fans go in some odd directions with the game world sometimes. I thought the Ravio/Link connection was  too obvious to merit special mention, that's why I assumed you were not referring to that.[/QUOTE]

Those aren't weird directions.  Jumping to the conclusion that Link and Ravio were gay is.

In any case, I don't think the Ravio/Link connection is as obvious as you were making out.  There was really only one hint to it before the reveal (the bunny suit).  The reveal made it obvious, but that's the purpose of a reveal.  I also don't believe for a second that you thought it was obvious until that point.  Observing you over the years hasn't left me terribly impressed with your instincts.[/QUOTE]

POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW

I thought it was obvious :

1, Ravio gives you a bracelet in the beginning that negates the powers of the chief villain of the game - hmmmm - this is not an ordinary dude.

2. Lorule residents invariably wear masks. Ravio is wearing a mask, and has a mask hanging on his shop wall (your house). Ravio is obviously from Lorule.

3. Everyone in the game has a double in Lorule. The game makes this to be an obvious point.So....who is yours?

4. Your house has a double in Lorule. It is a vacant, but 'lived in' building, suggesting the owner has left it recently. Most other abandoned structures in Lorule are ruined.

5. Ravio decides to set up his shop in your house. That is interesting. Why would he do that? Logically the Village would be the spot. But he feels more at home there.


I fail to see the difference between the old crones and the healers in Zelda 2. They have the same technique and the same purpose.  All of the ladies that are not old crones in that game have the same style of clothes, there is either heavier ladies or thin ladies, and mostly it is thin ladies. Nothing about the way they dress or acts suggest prostitution. All of the ladies in the game dress the same, hence they must all be prostitutes(??), because prostitutes do not dress like ordinary women, never have.  Link never pays them for services rendered, suggesting this is not prostitution.  Since when do prostitutes roam the main drag in daylight like decent citizens? Society does not allow them to do that. They live above the saloon, they live in the back alley, they work at night. Link comes into town, heavily or slightly or sometimes critically wounded -They say 'please let me help you. Come inside'  - wow that is sexy??? What a come on! And then ' I can restore your life.' Oh, I am turned on now! Come into town healthy - they say - the same thing. And - when you are a step away from dying - do you go to the doctor, or do you look for a prostitute?

Logic does suggest Ravio was Links double, all though not proved until the end, it was heavily hinted at. Logic does not ever suggest, nor does the game ever hint at, prostitution in Zelda 2.

[Oltobaz1]

I fail to see the difference between the old crones and the healers in Zelda 2. Except, you know, old crones are old, while the healers are thin and alluring.

They have the same technique and the same purpose.  All of the ladies that are not old crones in that game have the same style of clothes, there is either heavier ladies or thin ladies, and mostly it is thin ladies. Sure, but the healers are always dressed in red, like they work in a red light district.

Nothing about the way they dress or acts suggest prostitution. All of the ladies in the game dress the same, hence they must all be prostitutes(??), because prostitutes do not dress like ordinary women, never have. Seems like you and I aren't after the same kind of women. On a more serious note, and this is why we're having this debate, things are suggested, you wouldn't expect to see anything akin, to say, GTA, for instance. Granted, there wouldn't be much of a debate then. Of course, you don't have to look at this series to look at voluptuous scantily clad women. Aren't the sensual fairies in Ocarina of Time plenty of sex appeal?

Link never pays them for services rendered, suggesting this is not prostitution. Again, things are suggested. They can't be made too obvious, considering what's the target audience at the time the game came out. Or maybe they just like him. He's a hero, wears a cool uniform.. You know?

Since when do prostitutes roam the main drag in daylight like decent citizens? Society does not allow them to do that. They live above the saloon, they live in the back alley, they work at night. You're looking at this from a western standpoint. In Japan, prostitutes are readily available 24 hours, people actually come to you in daylight and tell you about services available in their brothels. Society tolerates it, to degrees you wouldn't believe. This game was made in Japan.

Link comes into town, heavily or slightly or sometimes critically wounded -They say 'please let me help you. Come inside'  - wow that is sexy??? What a come on! And then ' I can restore your life.' Oh, I am turned on now! Come into town healthy - they say - the same thing. And - when you are a step away from dying - do you go to the doctor, or do you look for a prostitute? They make him feel good! they arouse his life gauge! They perform a massage, you know, his back must hurt, that sort of thing.. Whatever they do happens behind closed doors, hence a matter of opinion. Anyone's guess!

Logic does suggest Ravio was Links double, all though not proved until the end, it was heavily hinted at. Logic does not ever suggest, nor does the game ever hint at, prostitution in Zelda 2. Zelda games have plenty of hidden references. Whether you catch those or not.. Expand your horizons!

[m0zart1]

[QUOTE=Segatarious]I thought it was obvious :

1, Ravio gives you a bracelet in the beginning that negates the powers of the chief villain of the game - hmmmm - this is not an ordinary dude.

2. Lorule residents invariably wear masks. Ravio is wearing a mask, and has a mask hanging on his shop wall (your house). Ravio is obviously from Lorule.

3. Everyone in the game has a double in Lorule. The game makes this to be an obvious point.So....who is yours?

4. Your house has a double in Lorule. It is a vacant, but 'lived in' building, suggesting the owner has left it recently. Most other abandoned structures in Lorule are ruined.

5. Ravio decides to set up his shop in your house. That is interesting. Why would he do that? Logically the Village would be the spot. But he feels more at home there.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

I am glad you thought it was obvious, but I didn't.  I don't think your hints are conclusive, for the following reasons:

(1) It's not "ordinary" for anything someone carries in the real world to have special powers, yet they invariably do in Zelda games.  Nonetheless, that isn't really much of a hint given that Ravio openly denies knowing what it did at the time.

(2) Ravio wears a full body suit, not just a mask.  It's not much different than the bee man wearing a full body suit in Kakariko village in Hyrule.  Ravio could essentially just as easily be from Hyrule.  How many folks wear full body suits in Lorule?

(3)  Not everyone.  There are numerous individuals in Kakariko village who do not have Lorulean counterparts, as well as a few in the mountain region.

(4) It doesn't just look vacant, but completely trashed.  It doesn't appear lived in for a very long time.

(5) No Zelda game is absent incredible coincidences.

Still, I will concede that these are very subtle hints to the identity.  The bunny suit is still the only strong hint IMO (and that will only be a strong hint to those who played and know ALttP).

[QUOTE]I fail to see the difference between the old crones and the healers in Zelda 2. They have the same technique and the same purpose.

<clipped nonsensical rant>

Logic does suggest Ravio was Links double, all though not proved until the end, it was heavily hinted at. Logic does not ever suggest, nor does the game ever hint at, prostitution in Zelda 2[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I know you don't, but that's your failing.  The old ladies grant Link a magic refill.  The old wizards teach spells. The warriors teach special moves.  Only the younger ladies in digitally provocative clothing actually replenish "hearts", which also happen to be life.  I think the connection is rather obvious.  It isn't CONCLUSIVE, but no one has claimed it is conclusive.  It is just an obvious connection.  It's obvious enough that it has been talked about countless times by a great many folks who played that game, not just me.

Btw, I also think it's obvious that Link gets some loving from the original Zelda he wakes up at the end of Zelda II.  That one is even more obvious.  Somehow I could imagine you arguing against that one too, and probably for the same personal reasons that motivate your fervor on the previous point.

[m0zart1]

[QUOTE=Oltobaz]You're looking at this from a western standpoint. In Japan, prostitutes are readily available 24 hours, people actually come to you in daylight and tell you about services available in their brothels. Society tolerates it, to degrees you wouldn't believe. This game was made in Japan.[/QUOTE]

Indeed.  I had no idea how common youth prostitution was in Japan until I saw some expose on it in the 90s.  "Compensated dating" is very common, and the less common "Reverse compensated dating" is still common enough that it would surprise the unexpecting Western mind.

There are of course Western countries where prostitution is essentially legal and common (New Zealand for instance, where it's almost entirely unregulated), and of course Germany and Amsterdam (which are regulated, but still pretty open), and Nevada in the United States (which is HEAVILY regulated).  But most of the West still considers this taboo and I think many would be as surprised as I was at the openness of it in Japan (despite it's iffy legal status).

[Segatarious1]

The irony here - especially in the NES era - but still today - Nintendo is FAMOUS for censoring games with any sort of objectionable content for the West. The West has always been their bread and butter, especially the USA. Nintendo has benen a champion of family friendly games, throughout their entire history. Now I read dubious 'prostitution mores' about Japan form people who do not live there, and I shake my head. None of this adds up. So Nintendo released this highly anticipated sequel to secretly push for 'child prostitution' and 'compensated dating'. It is utterly ridiculous. Link is a fairy tail hero (literally) , not a fractured fairy tail hero. Prostitution has never entered into the game series, and has never even been hinted at.

Zelda 2 was not censored, because their is nothing to censor, There is no reason for me to 'expand my horizons', because this is all pulled out of strange wishful thinking in the first place.

And this is exactly why I reacted to that vague first post in the first place. I knew I was scratching the surface of something,

[m0zart1]

[QUOTE=Segatarious]Zelda 2 was not censored, because their is nothing to censor, There is no reason for me to 'expand my horizons', because this is all pulled out of strange wishful thinking in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Zelda II was not censored  because it wasn't strong enough to censor.  Again, it is OBVIOUS when the curtain goes down and the original Zelda throws herself at Link that something is going to happen behind that screen -- yet that wasn't censored either.  For all of Nintendo's censorship, it's usually only around very concrete items for which there is sure to be an acknowledgement from parents and an objection (blood, religion, etc.).

In Ocarina of Time, there's no attempt to censor the very obvious implication that Nabooru had essentially offered Link a sexual favor in trade for his retrieving the Silver Gauntlets for her (something she brings up again after she becomes a sage, as in: "I had no idea you'd turn out to be so handsome.  I sure wish I had done that thing I said I'd do for you!").  Hell, even my mother got the impression that this is what was being said.  While it's an obvious implication, it's not problematic enough to haunt Nintendo in the sales department.

Basically, I think your assumptions here fall completely flat.