Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

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Sonicx9
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby Sonicx9 » June 29th, 2018, 3:44 am

Stalvern wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:It also makes sense why older systems had different look and feel back then!

This was because the limited power practical at the time highlighted the differences between hardware developers' decisions about what their systems could and couldn't do; with so little for a manufacturing budget to buy, it was obvious whether the money went to a bigger palette or larger sprites or more sound channels or what have you. And this was entirely due to the graphic and sound chips, not the CPU - the 6502 was in everything from the Apple II to the C64 to the NES, but it's impossible to mistake any of those systems for each other because of everything else in their designs. As technology progressed, these differences (again, having almost nothing to do with CPU choice) inherently decreased with hardware's convergence on higher and higher fidelity. The reason you can barely tell the difference between the Xbone's graphics and the PS4's isn't that they have the same CPU architecture but that they're putting more than 16 colors on the screen and playing more than three channels of sound. The immediately obvious technical differences between systems like the Intellivision and Colecovision are impossible with the power of today's hardware.

Sonicx9 wrote:Not to mention lets look at an example of improvements for Switch from launch to a year, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRA1mCbrac vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMfpXkROIMw neither is perfect but the later proves that over time companies do get more familiar with the CPU architecture to get games looking and running better as they learn. But when it plain Jane X86 they know what they are doing from the get go. Because look at this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n86TiqEs-k they ran at the same resolution 2 years later which shows they can not optimize much more outside of using PS4 Pro and Xbox One X shows that X86 is not always better FYI.

What point are you trying to make? The Switch's situation is the very definition of worse. If it takes longer for developers to catch up to the hardware, what possible advantage is that? And even at its best, it still never achieves the graphical detail of its competitors.

Is your entire thesis that the Switch's CPU is "better" because developers have to put in more work and still get far less out of it than they could from the PS4? I'm honestly struggling to understand your thoughts here.

But again, and I can't stress this enough, the CPU architecture is unrelated to this. The Switch is what it is (in a word, weak) because of its GPU, RAM, and storage media. And, yet again, nobody is "digging" into any "metal" (side note: for the love of God, stop typing those words and think of a single other way to express the concept of low-level development) on any modern systems, Switch or otherwise, in the way that you're talking about. Programming the Switch in assembly is a fool's errand.

Sonicx9 wrote:I am not a fan of the Atari Jaguar, but love the Sega Saturn for it games, but when it was not X86 based back then companies had no choice but to do metal digging and it worked even if it was harder to work with.

If you're going to bring up the fifth console generation, you have to acknowledge that, like the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, the PlayStation and N64 had the same CPU architecture, and they couldn't be more different from each other. It means nothing at all.


If you have one YouTuber to blaim it is ReviewTechUSA as I was heavly inspired by him right down to saying digging in the metal in this video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA

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velcrozombie
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby velcrozombie » June 29th, 2018, 10:29 am

Sonicx9 wrote:
If you have one YouTuber to blaim it is ReviewTechUSA as I was heavly inspired by him right down to saying digging in the metal in this video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA


That's...not great form. If you no longer believed in what you were saying you could have gone with "You've given me a new perspective" or "Thank you for your insight" or "Maybe I was wrong - I'll have to think about the issue more". You could have even said "Let's agree to disagree" if you still believed in what you were saying. You went with "IT WASN'T MY IDEA! REVIEWTECHUSA MADE ME DO IT!".

Sonicx9
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby Sonicx9 » June 29th, 2018, 2:22 pm

velcrozombie wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:
If you have one YouTuber to blaim it is ReviewTechUSA as I was heavly inspired by him right down to saying digging in the metal in this video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA


That's...not great form. If you no longer believed in what you were saying you could have gone with "You've given me a new perspective" or "Thank you for your insight" or "Maybe I was wrong - I'll have to think about the issue more". You could have even said "Let's agree to disagree" if you still believed in what you were saying. You went with "IT WASN'T MY IDEA! REVIEWTECHUSA MADE ME DO IT!".


I am sorry for that, it also worth mentioning that me criticizing cross-gen/handheld version of next gen games during the 2013-2016 period was also influenced by ReviewTechUSA. So my problem is being influenced by him too much as a bandwagon freek is that correct?

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scotland
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby scotland » June 29th, 2018, 2:49 pm

I think you should explore your opinions and your questions, not other peoples.

You could say 'I heard this idea that...' and just enjoy the exploration of the argument's strengths and weaknesses. You don't need to take a stance if its not even your own opinion.

I like Velcrozombie reminding us thats its okay to change your opinion too. Its also a positive to say 'I see your points, but my opinion is still ... .' as well if your opinion still holds. We learn from each other if we try to engage honestly, and not looking to win an argument.

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Stalvern
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby Stalvern » June 29th, 2018, 6:19 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:If you have one YouTuber to blaim it is ReviewTechUSA as I was heavly inspired by him right down to saying digging in the metal in this video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA

I watched the video, and your idea is nowhere in it. What this guy was saying in 2013 is that because of the systems' similarities to PC hardware, he was afraid that the underwhelming performance of their launch titles was an accurate picture of the consoles' capabilities, as developers should already have had experience with the hardware. Now, he wasn't completely right – the systems still had their own specific hardware and firmware configurations with their own learning curves (particularly the Xbox One), and as with many launch titles, rushed development cycles resulted in poor optimization regardless – but his concerns about resolution and frame rate were borne out by games' persistent limitation of running at 1080p or 60 FPS, not both. In the end, Sony and Microsoft had to put out the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X to address the issue.

Sonicx9 wrote:I am sorry for that, it also worth mentioning that me criticizing cross-gen/handheld version of next gen games during the 2013-2016 period was also influenced by ReviewTechUSA. So my problem is being influenced by him too much as a bandwagon freek is that correct?

Yes. You generally seem to take a very uncritical view of YouTube videos, on top of misunderstanding them in the first place. You need to recognize that having a webcam and a YouTube channel doesn't make someone right, and you need to think more about what these people are saying, not just to evaluate their claims but to be sure of what their claims actually are. Scotland is absolutely correct here.

I want to say that what I've always respected about you is that, no matter how much you care about a topic, and no matter how strongly you state (and restate :Р) your ideas, I've never seen you get angry at people who disagree, regardless of how angry the issue might make you. That's a very rare character quality, especially on the Internet, and I can't say that I always have it myself, although I try. Be proud of this.

BlasteroidAli
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby BlasteroidAli » June 30th, 2018, 9:29 am

A lovely quirky post where we discuss where my Atari 800 is better than your Tandy TRS 80.
My playstation is better than your Saturn.
Etc.
The whole idea is done to death.
Here is a real question for the originator of the post. Is Rise of the Tomb Raider out on the switch? How about God of War? Arguably the best game this generation. Is Last of Us coming out for the Switch?

Have they announced Halo for the switch?

It is software that defines games systems no hardware.

Sonicx9
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby Sonicx9 » June 30th, 2018, 9:27 pm

BlasteroidAli wrote:A lovely quirky post where we discuss where my Atari 800 is better than your Tandy TRS 80.
My playstation is better than your Saturn.
Etc.
The whole idea is done to death.
Here is a real question for the originator of the post. Is Rise of the Tomb Raider out on the switch? How about God of War? Arguably the best game this generation. Is Last of Us coming out for the Switch?

Have they announced Halo for the switch?

It is software that defines games systems no hardware.


God of War and Last of US do not count to come to Switch as Sony PlayStation first party are PlayStation only save for rare exceptions on PC and Mobile.

Rise of the Tomb Raider can run on Switch as it was on Xbox 360, and for Halo series, Phil Spencer wants their games to come to the Switch according to this article.: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/1 ... il_spencer they just need to go to THQ Nordic to have Switch/PS4 ports published with the licenses and their you go!

Stalvern wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:If you have one YouTuber to blaim it is ReviewTechUSA as I was heavly inspired by him right down to saying digging in the metal in this video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSI701GEWsA

I watched the video, and your idea is nowhere in it. What this guy was saying in 2013 is that because of the systems' similarities to PC hardware, he was afraid that the underwhelming performance of their launch titles was an accurate picture of the consoles' capabilities, as developers should already have had experience with the hardware. Now, he wasn't completely right – the systems still had their own specific hardware and firmware configurations with their own learning curves (particularly the Xbox One), and as with many launch titles, rushed development cycles resulted in poor optimization regardless – but his concerns about resolution and frame rate were borne out by games' persistent limitation of running at 1080p or 60 FPS, not both. In the end, Sony and Microsoft had to put out the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X to address the issue.


That is exactly what I did meant from that video was that because the PS4/Xbox One at launch in 2013 where nothing but water down consolized PC systems with X86 coding like PC, they should have been easy right away. But devs had problems with them from day one even though that is something more to happen if it was ARM, MIPS, PowerPC,Motorola, MOS, & Zilog, not X86 which is a total joke. And to make matters worse in 2015 two years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n86TiqEs-k Star Wars: Battlefront on the same engine still was 900P on PS4, and 720P on Xbox One which was inexcusable even without the PS3/Xbox 360 interfering compared to Battlefield 4 which may explain the side effect of the lower resolution for Battlefield 4 case. About the part you said about he systems still had their own specific hardware and firmware configurations with their own learning curves. That is odd as the only thing was the Xbox One esram, but even when devs got more used to it, they still had trouble like Star Wars: Battlefront case, which is the point about why X86 is not lollipop programming better as it has it own problems compared to ARM, MIPS, PowerPC,Motorola, MOS, & Zilog which are not as powerful as X86, actually had more achieved over time on the tech like the NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, PS2, GameCube, Xbox 360, PS3, GBA, DS, 3DS, Vita, Switch, etc.

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Stalvern
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby Stalvern » July 2nd, 2018, 12:00 am

Sonicx9 wrote:That is exactly what I did meant from that video was that because the PS4/Xbox One at launch in 2013 where nothing but water down consolized PC systems with X86 coding like PC, they should have been easy right away. But devs had problems with them from day one even though that is something more to happen if it was ARM, MIPS, PowerPC,Motorola, MOS, & Zilog, not X86 which is a total joke. And to make matters worse in 2015 two years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n86TiqEs-k Star Wars: Battlefront on the same engine still was 900P on PS4, and 720P on Xbox One which was inexcusable even without the PS3/Xbox 360 interfering compared to Battlefield 4 which may explain the side effect of the lower resolution for Battlefield 4 case. About the part you said about he systems still had their own specific hardware and firmware configurations with their own learning curves. That is odd as the only thing was the Xbox One esram, but even when devs got more used to it, they still had trouble like Star Wars: Battlefront case, which is the point about why X86 is not lollipop programming better as it has it own problems compared to ARM, MIPS, PowerPC,Motorola, MOS, & Zilog which are not as powerful as X86, actually had more achieved over time on the tech like the NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, PS2, GameCube, Xbox 360, PS3, GBA, DS, 3DS, Vita, Switch, etc.

The relevant similarities were that they used AMD GPUs along with the Intel CPUs. If they had new custom graphics hardware, it would be meaningless to compare them to PCs.

In any case, you still haven't explained why having less of a learning curve makes the systems worse. It is an advantage, plain and simple. The reason that the PS4 and Xbone underperformed compared to expectations is simply that they were underpowered. There is no reason to draw some connection between this and the Switch, certainly not in the area of CPU architecture.

And please don't rattle off these lists of processors and systems like they have anything to do with your point. The 6502 (produced by MOS Technology), Z80 (Zilog), and 68000 (Motorola) were incredibly common in their time, and everything that you're trying to say about Intel-based systems would apply directly to them as well. The SNES's CPU is directly based on the TurboGrafx-16's, which in turn is based on the one in the NES and 2600 (6502). The Genesis and Neo Geo have the same CPU (68000). The Master System's CPU (Z80) went on to be used in the Game Boy. All three of these were used in countless home computers throughout the '80s. Apart from those programming IBM systems and compatibles, absolutely any programmer in the '80s, no matter what level of experience, would have worked with at least one of these chips. How is it that working with an Intel CPU (but, again, nobody really works with a CPU these days) is "code plopping" (???) but working with the equally ubiquitous 68000 is "digging into the metal"? It's the exact same situation, whether the chip has one company's name on it or another's. You can't pretend that having a well-known CPU in current-generation systems is any different from using well-known CPUs in previous generations. Your ideas about hardware are completely divorced from reality.

pacman000
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby pacman000 » July 2nd, 2018, 9:05 am

From what I've read the Game Boy did not use a Z-80; it used a custom processor made by Rioch which was similar to the Z-80 & Intel 8080. (Intel & Zilog's processors were already similar; Rioch left out a few of Zilog's instructions in favor of some of Intel's.)

But that's splitting hairs; the processor used in the Game Boy was close enough to other common processors to cut down the learning curve needed to program it back-in-the-day.

You could make an argument that custom co-processors, like the PS3's Cell processor or the Amiga's various processors, helped their systems stand out. But programmers still needed to learn how those systems worked to take advantage of any enhanced features, & custom co-processors are harder to upgrade than something standard. (Hurts backwards compatibly.)

ActRaiser
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Re: Why ARM architecture for the Nintendo Switch is better then X86 from PS4/Xbox One!

Postby ActRaiser » July 2nd, 2018, 10:32 am

Did you guys know there is an ignore poster option? It hides posts from anyone you think is annoying. I've used and it cuts down on the stress of dealing with goofy posts. Sure, you can always view them if you'd like but it really keeps things simple. I see posts from 99% of folks and ignore the goofy things. You can also show the hidden posts anytime you'd like as well so you won't miss out on anything.


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