The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

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Sonicx9
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The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby Sonicx9 » October 14th, 2019, 2:22 pm

At first you may be wondering why I am making this comparison, and at first it not comparable but here is the truth. Both the Switch and Sega Saturn where more underpowered compared to the competition (PS1 and N64 for Saturn case and base PS4 and Xbox One for Switch case.). Both Switch and Sega Saturn have unique proprietary hardware unlike the more stratforward hardware the other have, (PS1 and N64 using MIPS based tech, as opposite to the Sega Saturn dual VDP/SH2 setup, and PS4 and Xbox One used plane jane AMD X86 based tech as opposite to the Switch Nvidia/ARM setup.). Both Sega Saturn and Switch have dither transparency used more often due to hardware limitations compared to the rivals.

Sega Saturn dither Transparency:

Image

Nintendo Switch dither Transparency:

Image

Both have been famous for impressive ports that were pulled off by devs digging into the hardware, examples Panic Button for id Tech 6 and 7 ports, Saber Interactive The Witcher 3 port: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUHNowi ... k80zuHE9cA for Switch case, Lobotomy Software Quake port and Sega very own Virtua Fighter 2 port for Sega Saturn case. And on a related note the Switch and Sega Saturn have been known to get crappy ports due to lazy devs (examples EA with it FIFA ports on Switch even though The Witcher 3 is way more advanced WTF!, EA Sega Saturn sport game ports compared to PS1, heck EA even treats the Switch like the Sega Saturn in this article: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/58992/ni ... index.html, other notable bad Switch ports included WWE2k18 Switch, Ark: Survival Evolved, SNK Heroines: Tag Team Frenzy, Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, Sega Saturn notable bad ports included more demanding 3D games from PS1 and N64 downported and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, ironic considering Switch Bloodstained like Saturn Symphony of the Night got the bad end of the stick.)

It makes me very sad the Nintendo Switch is treated like a second class citizen compared to the PS4 and lesser degree the Xbox One, just like how the Sega Saturn was compared to the PS1 and N64, and I think it even more inexcusable as we should be past the days of bad game boy era Mortal Kombat ports or bad Sega Saturn ports, what a joke for devs. Thoughts?

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zetax
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby zetax » October 14th, 2019, 4:08 pm

I don't think that Switch "dither transparency" example is the result of underpowered hardware, just a creative decision by the designers of the game.

Didn't you try this topic before?

Sonicx9
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby Sonicx9 » October 14th, 2019, 4:19 pm

zetax wrote:I don't think that Switch "dither transparency" example is the result of underpowered hardware, just a creative decision by the designers of the game.

Didn't you try this topic before?


Not necessarily the closest was about: "The Game Paradise: CruisinMix Special coming to Switch" topic: https://videogamecritic.com/forums/view ... er#p168744 and doing Switch vs Sega Saturn style comparisons. But this here is a full length topic because it baffles me that devs have trouble on the console like the Sega Saturn which is sad.

DotNetWolf
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby DotNetWolf » October 14th, 2019, 7:31 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:It makes me very sad the Nintendo Switch is treated like a second class citizen compared to the PS4 and lesser degree the Xbox One, just like how the Sega Saturn was compared to the PS1 and N64, and I think it even more inexcusable as we should be past the days of bad game boy era Mortal Kombat ports or bad Sega Saturn ports, what a joke for devs. Thoughts?


I never got that impression at all with the Switch to be perfectly honest. If anything, the Xbox One was always viewed as the console that was (and still is) treated as "a second class citizen." When the Xbox One was first announced, people hated the fact that it was only accessible with an internet connection, came with the Kinect accessory that people deemed as "spyware", lacked console exclusives and did not provide any sort of online backwards compatibility/gamesharing (at the time). As of now, while some improvements were made, people seem to favor the Switch and PS4 since Microsoft had a rough time fixing their mistakes all throughout the current console generation. I know what it feels like to enjoy something that most people do not, but at the same time, I will not let that ruin my experience. People love to make these types of comparisons and create their own biases. Heck, you could also make the case that I have an Xbox One bias, but I could care less!

As for the Saturn, the reason it is not highly thought of as much as the PS1 and the N64 is mostly due to the fact it did not have a strong library of games outside the third-party multiplats. In Japan most of its exclusives consisted of JRPG's. At the time these games were released Sega of America thought that most American consumers weren't that interested in this genre of gaming and therefore decided to not localize most of these titles. Other than that, I find some of this tech interesting to learn about despite my lack of knowledge of this specific subject.

I don't know the people you hang around outside this forum, but it sounds to me like you should try to stray away from people that make you feel bad for liking things that you want to enjoy, and if it is just opinions were discussing here then try to stay humble and let bygones be bygones (gaming is meant to be a pastime/hobby after all). It is pretty clear based on this board's activity you are very passionate about the Nintendo Switch and its success. Try to enjoy the little things in life and do not let others tell you otherwise.

Sonicx9
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby Sonicx9 » October 14th, 2019, 7:52 pm

DotNetWolf wrote:I never got that impression at all with the Switch to be perfectly honest. If anything, the Xbox One was always viewed as the console that was (and still is) treated as "a second class citizen." When the Xbox One was first announced, people hated the fact that it was only accessible with an internet connection, came with the Kinect accessory that people deemed as "spyware", lacked console exclusives and did not provide any sort of online backwards compatibility/gamesharing (at the time). As of now, while some improvements were made, people seem to favor the Switch and PS4 since Microsoft had a rough time fixing their mistakes all throughout the current console generation. I know what it feels like to enjoy something that most people do not, but at the same time, I will not let that ruin my experience. People love to make these types of comparisons and create their own biases. Heck, you could also make the case that I have an Xbox One bias, but I could care less!

As for the Saturn, the reason it is not highly thought of as much as the PS1 and the N64 is mostly due to the fact it did not have a strong library of games outside the third-party multiplats. In Japan most of its exclusives consisted of JRPG's. At the time these games were released Sega of America thought that most American consumers weren't that interested in this genre of gaming and therefore decided to not localize most of these titles. Other than that, I find some of this tech interesting to learn about despite my lack of knowledge of this specific subject.

I don't know the people you hang around outside this forum, but it sounds to me like you should try to stray away from people that make you feel bad for liking things that you want to enjoy, and if it is just opinions were discussing here then try to stay humble and let bygones be bygones (gaming is meant to be a pastime/hobby after all). It is pretty clear based on this board's activity you are very passionate about the Nintendo Switch and its success. Try to enjoy the little things in life and do not let others tell you otherwise.


1st point, In certain area Switch has it better then the Xbox One like indies and mid tear or smaller Japanese support, but when it comes to certain 3rd party multi console ports, the Switch has it worse with some of the examples I mentioned above.

Saturn had more than just 3rd party multi platform games it also had quality 3rd party exclusives and quality Sega 1st party games, it just most of that was Japan only sad face, shame the N64 did better in the west then the Saturn even though the N64 has aged the worst of the big 3 from that era (framerate issues anyone!).

Last point, The communities I hang out with from Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc are unfortunately AAA fanboy frat boy dude bro PC Master Race, stereotypes that hate on the Switch, so I defend the Switch especially because it very similar to how the Sega Saturn gets made fun of only it by the certain group of people, and I like to defend critics opinion on the Switch as it better then the PS4 and Xbox One, even though people worship the PS4 as the best console sense slice bread.

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DrLitch
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby DrLitch » October 14th, 2019, 7:56 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:At first you may be wondering why I am making this comparison, and at first it not comparable but here is the truth. Both the Switch and Sega Saturn where more underpowered compared to the competition (PS1 and N64 for Saturn case and base PS4 and Xbox One for Switch case.).

Sega Saturn notable bad ports included more demanding 3D games from PS1 and N64 downported and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, ironic considering Switch Bloodstained like Saturn Symphony of the Night got the bad end of the stick.)


Symphony of the Night is a 2D game with minimal use of polygons. Those are sprites just as mamma made them. The Saturn was by far the most advanced system for 2D in the day, the port was a disgrace, nothing more. Symphony of the Night should have been the definitive version on the Saturn.

Saturn Underpowered? Not at all. It could push triple to quadruple the number of polygons than the N64 and far outclasses it in 2D. Just does not have the fancy hardware anti aliasing the N64 had to smooth all the jaggies. But in terms of raw polygon numbers, the Saturn way outclasses the N64. Both the Saturn and PS1 could push 3 -4 times the number of polygons over the N64. They looked warped, pixelated, and distorted but they were there usually with a blistering 60fps frame rate as well. Dead or Alive, which was better on the Saturn than PS1 would put a hurting on the N64. N64 was that generations weak console. The only problem with the Saturn is it never sold. Games sell systems. People wanted to play Mario 64 and Zelda in the day, they wanted Metal Gear Solid or Crash Bandicoot. Saturn had Virtua Fighting and Virtua Racing.


DotNetWolf wrote:I never got that impression at all with the Switch to be perfectly honest. If anything, the Xbox One was always viewed as the console that was (and still is) treated as "a second class citizen."


This ^^^^^^^

The Xbox One is by far the flop of this generation (other than the gimmicky WiiU). Whether it deserves this distinction is a matter of opinion but Microsoft's Xbox Game Pass on the Nintendo Switch makes me worried about Microsoft's future in the Console Business. They see it already, the next generation is going to be Sony PS5 vs Nintendo. The writing is on the wall already. Particularly when Microsoft's big exclusives for Xbox are going to be PC games as well.

Sonicx9
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby Sonicx9 » October 14th, 2019, 8:25 pm

DrLitch wrote:Symphony of the Night is a 2D game with minimal use of polygons. Those are sprites just as mamma made them. The Saturn was by far the most advanced system for 2D in the day, the port was a disgrace, nothing more. Symphony of the Night should have been the definitive version on the Saturn.

Saturn Underpowered? Not at all. It could push triple to quadruple the number of polygons than the N64 and far outclasses it in 2D. Just does not have the fancy hardware anti aliasing the N64 had to smooth all the jaggies. But in terms of raw polygon numbers, the Saturn way outclasses the N64. Both the Saturn and PS1 could push 3 -4 times the number of polygons over the N64. They looked warped, pixelated, and distorted but they were there usually with a blistering 60fps frame rate as well. Dead or Alive, which was better on the Saturn than PS1 would put a hurting on the N64. N64 was that generations weak console. The only problem with the Saturn is it never sold. Games sell systems. People wanted to play Mario 64 and Zelda in the day, they wanted Metal Gear Solid or Crash Bandicoot. Saturn had Virtua Fighting and Virtua Racing.


DotNetWolf wrote:I never got that impression at all with the Switch to be perfectly honest. If anything, the Xbox One was always viewed as the console that was (and still is) treated as "a second class citizen."


This ^^^^^^^

The Xbox One is by far the flop of this generation (other than the gimmicky WiiU). Whether it deserves this distinction is a matter of opinion but Microsoft's Xbox Game Pass on the Nintendo Switch makes me worried about Microsoft's future in the Console Business. They see it already, the next generation is going to be Sony PS5 vs Nintendo. The writing is on the wall already. Particularly when Microsoft's big exclusives for Xbox are going to be PC games as well.


Fort the first point it mostly true the Sega Saturn 2D does edge out the PS1 and N64 in almost all areas except for half transparency features on VDP1 is quite funky and complicated as said in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OchOV_WDg, but when utilized right on tightly made exclusives it can look great: https://youtu.be/btO2ADykYnQ?t=15 man that hot brunette anime gals half transparency pantsu is sure hot and sexy along with being Kawaii! (I love Anime/Japanese Girls so sue me 8-)). And actually true the Sega Saturn when utilized right can do impressive stuff if you watch about the Transparency features in the video link I gave. And what weird is the N64 was said to be the so called most powerful, but had the most framerate issues likely a bottleneck of the N64 carts combined with the poorly optimized hardware set up. But true the Sega Saturn did not have big name must have system sellers as both the PS1 and N64 had them, Sega Saturn with Virtua Fighter and Nights was simply not enough and really sad as well as I think Nights put both Sonic Adventure games to shame!

As for the Xbox brand it a Joke at this point because they are not only porting to PC, but even some on Switch like Ori, Hellblade and Cuphead kind of like what Sega did on PC back in the Sega Saturn days as that system did poorly in the west.

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DrLitch
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby DrLitch » October 14th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:And what weird is the N64 was said to be the so called most powerful, but had the most framerate issues likely a bottleneck of the N64 carts combined with the poorly optimized hardware set up. But true the Sega Saturn did not have big name must have system sellers as both the PS1 and N64 had them, Sega Saturn with Virtua Fighter and Nights was simply not enough and really sad as well as I think Nights put both Sonic Adventure games to shame!

As for the Xbox brand it a Joke at this point because they are not only porting to PC, but even some on Switch like Ori, Hellblade and Cuphead kind of like what Sega did on PC back in the Sega Saturn days as that system did poorly in the west.


With the N64 what should have been a console several steps forward it was actually several back. Nintendo had some neat tricks in hardware but Nintendo used to be their own worst enemy by holding companies back. They had a policy of not giving developers direct access to Microcodes. Microcode is essentially RISC instructions that could be completed in one clock cycle and gave developers more freedom to optimize games. For instance one Microcode could double or triple the number of polygons on screen with a minor hit to effects. In a realistic game like Goldeneye this could have been a game changer - 20fps to 60fps or 30fps with more realsitic character models and so on. Factor 5 were one development team that broke rank and wrote their own microcodes producing some almost Dreamcast level titles like Rogue Squadron, Battle of Naboo, and EP Racer. I think they also did a realistic GT type racing game with advanced lighting and long draw distances (no fog). Definitely as it was though, Saturn had plenty of power, more than N64 in fact for developers to use. Quake port on Saturn is nearly PC level which was impressive in the day. The N64 port of Quake was blurry and had poor frame rate. Although Quake II was a huge improvement, the PS1 version was considerably better.

Yeah Microsoft are making some interesting choices. Good for Switch owners though, Ori is an excellent game.

Sonicx9 wrote:Last point, The communities I hang out with from Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc are unfortunately AAA fanboy frat boy dude bro PC Master Race, stereotypes that hate on the Switch, so I defend the Switch especially because it very similar to how the Sega Saturn gets made fun of only it by the certain group of people, and I like to defend critics opinion on the Switch as it better then the PS4 and Xbox One, even though people worship the PS4 as the best console sense slice bread.


Many of these folks are 20 and 30somethings that live with parents and hang out in these forums all day spouting their crap. Some may have their Liberal Arts degrees and refuse to take hourly salaries because their degrees do not translate that well to the jobs they really want (that is if they even want to work). Get enough of these folks together in their echo chambers and if you have your own sense of individualism you will stick out like a sore thumb. Do not dare post an opinion that goes against the grain. If you really are going to these sites to argue your case I feel obliged to tell you not to waste your time.

Edit:// My musings on the "living with parents/unemployable hacks" is more for sake of parody. Whoever these people are they definitely swarm to echo chambers. Whatever the case may be, these sad sacks are incapable of a good debate. If you are looking for one there is naught to be found, anyone with any semblance of normality has flown off the nest.

DotNetWolf
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby DotNetWolf » October 14th, 2019, 9:37 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:1st point, In certain area Switch has it better then the Xbox One like indies and mid tear or smaller Japanese support, but when it comes to certain 3rd party multi console ports, the Switch has it worse with some of the examples I mentioned above.


Sure. There is more support for Japanese titles, but that is because Nintendo IS a Japanese company. Saying one system has better indie titles than the other, however, is pretty subjective. I have played a decent number of indie games on both the Xbox One and the Switch (I own both systems). Depending on what types of games you are interested in will determine what system you will likely gravitate towards. If you are into JRPGs, visual novels, or arcade-style fighting games, the Switch is definitely your best bet. The Xbox One does have indie support too, maybe not the games you have in mind, but enough to be worth my time overall. What I love about Xbox One is being able to download a handful of both indie and AAA titles each every month (the games rotate out every thirty days) just for $60 a year. Keep in mind some of these games cost $20-$40 each. There was one month where Celeste, Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon as well a couple of other titles I never knew about were all readily available for me to download and try out. I know the Switch does not have very many ports, but that will not stop them from porting more games ranging from the last console generation to the current one.

Sonicx9 wrote:Saturn had more than just 3rd party multi platform games it also had quality 3rd party exclusives and quality Sega 1st party games, it just most of that was Japan only sad face, shame the N64 did better in the west then the Saturn even though the N64 has aged the worst of the big 3 from that era (framerate issues anyone!).


I am sure there are quality titles on the system, but like I said before, most of them were JRPGs (that is a very unpopular demographic they were trying to market to at the time). I do agree the N64 has not aged particularly well, but the same argument can be made about classic Rock n' Roll music. Rock n' Roll is pretty outdated by musical standard in terms of the lyric writing, instrumentation, and overall presentation. But guess what? That music is still being listened to by people of all ages to this day. The N64 is a similar case. Even with their hardware limitations, Nintendo was always about appealing to the general audience (more importantly the children). Most children might have fonder memories of playing games such as Super Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie, and Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and not so much the Saturn with Sonic R, Nights into Dreams, or Mr. Bones. Not to say none would want a Sega Saturn, but the marketing was not on the same level as the other two systems. In my case, I got a PS1 just to play Spyro the Dragon, Crash Bash and eventually Metal Gear Solid.

Sonicx9 wrote:Last point, The communities I hang out with from Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc are unfortunately AAA fanboy frat boy dude bro PC Master Race, stereotypes that hate on the Switch, so I defend the Switch especially because it very similar to how the Sega Saturn gets made fun of only it by the certain group of people, and I like to defend critics opinion on the Switch as it better then the PS4 and Xbox One, even though people worship the PS4 as the best console sense slice bread.


I do not want to dabble with this for too long so I will end with this: I appreciate like that you defend yourself in liking the Switch. Those types of people are never fun to be around and I would know. I used to get sucked into debates about PS3 being better than the Xbox 360 many years back on YouTube. Everyone has an opinion and whether or not you like it is perfectly fine. My advice is to not waste your time with these people and continue enjoying your time playing the games you want to play on your system of choice.

Sonicx9
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Re: The Nintendo Switch game ports are like the modern equivalent to the Sega Saturn ports!

Postby Sonicx9 » October 14th, 2019, 11:17 pm

DrLitch wrote:
With the N64 what should have been a console several steps forward it was actually several back. Nintendo had some neat tricks in hardware but Nintendo used to be their own worst enemy by holding companies back. They had a policy of not giving developers direct access to Microcodes. Microcode is essentially RISC instructions that could be completed in one clock cycle and gave developers more freedom to optimize games. For instance one Microcode could double or triple the number of polygons on screen with a minor hit to effects. In a realistic game like Goldeneye this could have been a game changer - 20fps to 60fps or 30fps with more realsitic character models and so on. Factor 5 were one development team that broke rank and wrote their own microcodes producing some almost Dreamcast level titles like Rogue Squadron, Battle of Naboo, and EP Racer. I think they also did a realistic GT type racing game with advanced lighting and long draw distances (no fog). Definitely as it was though, Saturn had plenty of power, more than N64 in fact for developers to use. Quake port on Saturn is nearly PC level which was impressive in the day. The N64 port of Quake was blurry and had poor frame rate. Although Quake II was a huge improvement, the PS1 version was considerably better.

Yeah Microsoft are making some interesting choices. Good for Switch owners though, Ori is an excellent game.

Many of these folks are 20 and 30somethings that live with parents and hang out in these forums all day spouting their crap. Some may have their Liberal Arts degrees and refuse to take hourly salaries because their degrees do not translate that well to the jobs they really want (that is if they even want to work). Get enough of these folks together in their echo chambers and if you have your own sense of individualism you will stick out like a sore thumb. Do not dare post an opinion that goes against the grain. If you really are going to these sites to argue your case I feel obliged to tell you not to waste your time.

Edit:// My musings on the "living with parents/unemployable hacks" is more for sake of parody. Whoever these people are they definitely swarm to echo chambers. Whatever the case may be, these sad sacks are incapable of a good debate. If you are looking for one there is naught to be found, anyone with any semblance of normality has flown off the nest.


For the first point, this explains why the N64 was such a choppy mess compared to the PS1 and Saturn.

It true with Microsoft and Ori is actually better on Switch with 60FPS animation update along with framerate: https://wccftech.com/ori-and-the-blind- ... s-xbox-pc/ so much for the power of the cloud hype lol!

For your 3rd point DrLitch, I should not take them seriously thanks for the tip.

DotNetWolf wrote:
Sure. There is more support for Japanese titles, but that is because Nintendo IS a Japanese company. Saying one system has better indie titles than the other, however, is pretty subjective. I have played a decent number of indie games on both the Xbox One and the Switch (I own both systems). Depending on what types of games you are interested in will determine what system you will likely gravitate towards. If you are into JRPGs, visual novels, or arcade-style fighting games, the Switch is definitely your best bet. The Xbox One does have indie support too, maybe not the games you have in mind, but enough to be worth my time overall. What I love about Xbox One is being able to download a handful of both indie and AAA titles each every month (the games rotate out every thirty days) just for $60 a year. Keep in mind some of these games cost $20-$40 each. There was one month where Celeste, Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon as well a couple of other titles I never knew about were all readily available for me to download and try out. I know the Switch does not have very many ports, but that will not stop them from porting more games ranging from the last console generation to the current one.

I am sure there are quality titles on the system, but like I said before, most of them were JRPGs (that is a very unpopular demographic they were trying to market to at the time). I do agree the N64 has not aged particularly well, but the same argument can be made about classic Rock n' Roll music. Rock n' Roll is pretty outdated by musical standard in terms of the lyric writing, instrumentation, and overall presentation. But guess what? That music is still being listened to by people of all ages to this day. The N64 is a similar case. Even with their hardware limitations, Nintendo was always about appealing to the general audience (more importantly the children). Most children might have fonder memories of playing games such as Super Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie, and Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and not so much the Saturn with Sonic R, Nights into Dreams, or Mr. Bones. Not to say none would want a Sega Saturn, but the marketing was not on the same level as the other two systems. In my case, I got a PS1 just to play Spyro the Dragon, Crash Bash and eventually Metal Gear Solid.

I do not want to dabble with this for too long so I will end with this: I appreciate like that you defend yourself in liking the Switch. Those types of people are never fun to be around and I would know. I used to get sucked into debates about PS3 being better than the Xbox 360 many years back on YouTube. Everyone has an opinion and whether or not you like it is perfectly fine. My advice is to not waste your time with these people and continue enjoying your time playing the games you want to play on your system of choice.


For your 1st point, you have good points Switch has been strong on everything but FPS games and Sports but no big loss as I am not a fan of either genres as they represent the frat boy dudebro AAA stereotypes.

2nd point, you have points about the N64 aging the worst, but true more people know PS1 and sadly the N64 more then the Saturn which is why Saturn was the ultimate 5th gen underdog just like the Wii U was before the Switch oddly enough.

3rd point, I just defend the Switch as it gets bashed by the AAA frat boy dudebro graphic freaks that love there hard M rating shock filled AAA games and poo poo Japanese/Indie and mid tier games calling them either weeb trash, childish, old school, or other bad slurs.


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