STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

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newmodelarmy
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby newmodelarmy » December 6th, 2017, 8:53 pm

I grew up on Star Wars and love it warts and all....her it is the DEFINITIVE list of worst to first.....

Episode I (terrible, terrible, terrible)
Episode II (see Episode 1, less one terrible)
Episode III (see Episode 2, less on terrible)

Episode VI (Rehash of the first movie, disjointed plot, Ewoks make this my least favorite movie from the original trilogy
Episode VII (really enjoyed Force Awakens. I know it is a rehash but Harrison Ford is great. Loved the first 3/4 of the movie but I felt the plot fell apart after the attack on the "death star")

Rogue One (LOVED this move, the first real "war" movie in star wars. I loved the action, plot, and the intense battles)
Episode IV (the "original", I am still blown away 40 years later when I watch the opening scene)
Episode V (Empire is my favorite movie of all time...I think it is just about perfect. Hoth, Asteroids, Bounty Hunters, Darth/Luke and a cliff hanger to boot)

I am so pumped for the Last Jedi! May the Force Be With You!

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DaHeckIzDat
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby DaHeckIzDat » December 6th, 2017, 10:56 pm

Y'all can argue all you want, but we all know the best Star Wars is the Christmas Special! Happy Life Day, everybody!

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ptdebate
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby ptdebate » December 7th, 2017, 8:42 pm

scotland wrote:At the end of TPM, Ani saves the day mostly with luck and flying skill, but did not pick up a light saber and take on Darth Maul, nor pick up a blaster, nor was he doing Jedi mind tricks, nor was he even master of his fate. With Rey, we got super pilot, plus other skills too.


Anakin is a 9-year-old in Episode 1. The movie makes no indication that he has experience with fighting, and although he does know how to fly pods, his aptitude with the Naboo fighter is not easily explained without the knowledge that he is more than a normal human being.

Rey is 19 years old in Episode VII. The very first scenes establish her as both a skilled fighter and a skilled pilot (turns out that Finn, who is also a fighter, could not only wield a lightsaber but also briefly hold his own against Kylo Ren). Nothing that Rey physically accomplishes is a major feat - she's clearly awkward with a lightsaber - but she manages to best Ren by predicting his movements (the film had already established in the mindreading scene that she is more headstrong than him).

scotland wrote:Well, I will consider 'I respect your opinion' progress since we had this conversation in January 2016. Back then, you inferred I was sexist as 'when did I or anyone else ever accuse a male character of being a Mary Sue.' I then went through a list of males that fit the bill. I am not attacking Rey as a strong female. I would love to see Ahsoka, Sabine or Hera in live action. as all very strong female Star Wars characters in animated canon shows. We watch both Ahsoka and Sabine, in particular, grow and learn.


Looking back at the thread from January, I must apologize for the way I came off to you and Shapur. It is not at all my intention to call anyone sexist, and, in truth, I never said anything of the sort. But I did go too far with the argument - this is not a film criticism site - and should have just agreed to disagree.
Anyway, I believe that the filmmakers were directly defying problematic trends in media, and I have to applaud them for that. Many of us were able to view Rey's abilities as a mystery to be explained rather than automatically comparing her to other characters, assuming we already know everything there is to know about this mythos and what it can mean for an individual. Honestly, if it had turned out that Rey was good enough at videogames to beat Chewbacca at monster chess I think people would have just about protested outside the theaters.

pacman000
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby pacman000 » December 7th, 2017, 10:52 pm

Artoo could've beat Chewie, but he didn't want to anger a Wookie.

ThePixelatedGenocide
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » December 8th, 2017, 5:35 am

Rey is a Mary Sue? Rey? Snarls at Han for offering her a gun, beats the shit out of Finn before asking a single question, and runs in terror from her first Force Vision Rey?

The Rey who nearly crashed the Falcoln until the force saved them?

The Rey who beat an injured man in a lightsaber duel with the power of the Dark side?

Waits for her family to come back for her like an abandoned puppy, Rey?

Just how feral does this desert rat need to be, before her character flaws count for anything? But I guess now the Force is a Mary Sue.

Pity it wasn't, back when it helped little slave boys build protocol droids and win races other humans couldn't survive. Or turned them into ace pilots. Or made them a virgin birth.

But who ever heard of a male Mary Sue? We'd need a different name, like Bruce Wayne or James Bond.

pacman000
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby pacman000 » December 8th, 2017, 11:34 am

1999 academic paper on Marry Sue Characters: http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.xhtml

Interesting to skim, at the least. My opinion: The debate is sort of interesting, but it becomes too political. In fanfics it's just writers trying to figure out how to write; they play with sympathy tropes, over do it a bit, and create characters some might find annoying. Beyond that, I see no real use for the term.

I can't really rank the Star Wars films. I'll put the first, 1977 version, at the top of the list then move on. Ok, maybe I'll put Empire at #2 too. There. I've made a list. ;)

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scotland
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby scotland » December 8th, 2017, 1:05 pm

I enjoy a nice Star Wars discussion, so thanks for not ripping into me for having what seems to be a minority opinion.

On the Mary Sue discussion, an issue might be that TFA is a callback to both ANH and ESB. In particular, we get both the mentor deaths, but also the first battles of young hero and villain who killed the mentor (The snowy setting throws in some Hoth there to reinforce the ESB). With Luke, there are years between Yavin and Bespin (and years for we the viewers in real time who kept reading his now non canon adventures).These are both huge milestones in Luke's life. With Rey (and for we the viewers), it all happens at once. It's 'too much too soon' without sufficient character development or time for growth even off screen. Now, this is possibly in the service of trying to outdo previous movies, maybe collapsing ANH and ESB callbacks, maybe just quickening the pace, director style, etc but that is partially why the Mary Sue argument comes to mind.

ThePixelatedGenocide
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » December 8th, 2017, 1:40 pm

To be fair, I had to watch the movie twice before I caught that it demonstrated her knowledge of the Falcoln was entirely force based. I don't blame anyone for questioning whether she's a Mary Sue.

I did. Same as I did for Anakin.

That really wasn't the best way to handle the kid.

But she's just a prodigy too. It makes sense in universe, because she's completely in-tune with her emotions (to a scary degree), and was raised by legends of The Force, so as already mentioned, everything that held Luke back, doubt and overthinking things, isn't stopping her at all. She's practically a force weapon, in the sense that she's unconsciously carrying out it's will.

Of course, that's not necessarily a good thing. No wonder why Luke's terrified.

There's almost no effort to make the audience aware of this dark side possibility, until John Williams decides to add in a bit of a musical hint at the end of her light saber battle. Before that, we're just enjoying the rush, and not thinking about it at all.

Just like her.

But then there's one other twist that makes all of this worth it.

What held Luke back? To a much lesser degree, that doubt's what's holding Kylo Ren back, instead. This creates a dynamic that's never been explored before, in the Star Wars movies. She's everything he wants to be. He's got all the answers about her power that she needs. If her mentor won't teach her...

And the latest trailer knows this. I've never before felt so teased by a Star Wars movie before.

The only question is whether the actual movie the trailer's attached to, knows all of this about itself? Or is this as honest as the Rogue One trailers that also hinted our leading Rogue might become a traitor? December 15th can't get here soon enough.

Edit: Btw, the worst Star Wars movie is The Clone Wars movie. It's so bad that you're all pretending it never happened. A lesser series would have been killed by that start, and the first season that followed.

LoganRuckman
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby LoganRuckman » December 8th, 2017, 3:51 pm

Fortunately, The Clone Wars was a great show. So was the mid '00s Clone Wars 2D Animated series created by the legendary Genndy Tartakovsky (man, he's incredibly talented and has created some of the greatest animated TV shows of all time, so it makes me really question Cartoon Network's continually shitty treatment of him and their various cancellations of his shows).

pacman000
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Re: STAR WARS EPISODE VIII / Star Wars ranking

Postby pacman000 » December 8th, 2017, 5:14 pm

Oh! I forgot about the Cline Wars cartoon feature. Haven't seen it.

Worst Star Wars movie I've seen might be one of the Ewok adventure movies. Dull. Burl Ives narration was nice tho.


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