2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Let me know what you think about my reviews.
jon
Posts: 804
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby jon » May 13th, 2021, 9:29 pm

MSR1701 wrote:
ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:
BlasteroidAli wrote: An interesting story is that Rage Software who were doing the conversion wrote their own custom engine which would have produced a higher frame rate than that of the Playstation version but John Carmac stepped in again to say no to the idea. He has since agreed it was a bad decision. After all Exhumed on the Saturn another 3d shooter runs better than the playstation version. So the Saturn owners of Doom got a raw deal from the programmer of Doom, Carmac who did not want a new custom engine. Wow.


To be fair to him, there would have been some texture warping. And he had no idea of how difficult the Saturn is to work with. According to one of Lobotomy's coders, the Saturn's quads are terrible for large geometry, because they cause dramatic slowdown.

He said the Quake engine would have been a lot smoother on PS1, if anyone had bothered to publish the port.

Later Saturn games like Sonic R and Sonic Jam somehow found a solution to the issue, but I've never seen anyone explain what changed. Was it just mind melting levels of optimization, as implied by Youtube's Game Hut? Using the sound hardware for an extra performance boost ala Shining Force III?

Whatever the answer was, you wouldn't find it in early 3rd party support documentation for the Saturn.


As I understand, the Saturn is a 2D machine that processes 3D from Quads instead of Polys, which messes up the 3D maths.


The Saturn was near impossible to make 3d games for. They purposely waited for PS1 to make 3d games then ported it. A game like Die Hard Trilogy for the part where you control the car in an open world they I mentioned a while ago that I didn't think the Saturn was powerful enough to have a 3d game where you can control a plane or a car in an open environment Then I was shown Saturn games like Die Hard Trilogy where I was supposedly wrong. But the only games for the Saturn where you can control a car or plane in an open world are ported and I've heard they suck.

I honestly don't think the Saturn could've drawn up from scratch a fully polygonal car game as advanced as Club Drive for the Jaguar. That's how weak the Saturn is for making original 3d games that aren't ports. I stand by that. Anything with cars or airplanes they had to port basically. I don't care what anyone says, that's how weak the Saturn was.

User avatar
DrLitch
Posts: 536
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 12:57 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby DrLitch » May 13th, 2021, 11:17 pm

VideoGameCritic wrote:It just occurred to me that the high-res polygons of Darxide seem sharper than anything I've seen on the Saturn. In my experience the polygon graphics on the Saturn were always very chunky. If this is true it's a scathing indictment of the Saturn!


Not a resolution thing here, assuming the 32X defaults to Genesis native resolution. Jaggies will be just as jaggy for PS1 or Saturn on their lower res modes. Darxide is an example of why I love software rendered poly's from this generation. Like the Atari Jag, nice and clean. Software gives versatility lacking in dedicated hardware of the time in the hands of a good artist. Fewer polys on screen but sometimes less is more.

jon wrote:They purposely waited for PS1 to make 3d games then ported it.


Porting cut time back then regarding graphical/audio assets but it is definitely was not a simple cut and paste job. Different compilers, C libraries, and so on, no chance of cut and paste. Then issue of optimization.... Assembly code made porting exponentially more complex. Back then porting was definitely a heck of a job. One console often had the much better game. Genesis Mickey Mania for instance comes to mind in 16-bit gen. We established that Saturn graphics blow... mostly... still though, I am impressed with Sonic R and Dead or Alive (and Virtua Fighter 2 as well). Not as impressed as, say, Unreal or System Shock 2 on PC from this time, but nonetheless it stoked a musing in my inner sanctum, a pondering of what could have been with the Saturn.
Last edited by DrLitch on May 13th, 2021, 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

djc
Posts: 156
Joined: September 24th, 2016, 3:42 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby djc » May 13th, 2021, 11:19 pm

I honestly don't think the Saturn could've drawn up from scratch a fully polygonal car game as advanced as Club Drive for the Jaguar. That's how weak the Saturn is for making original 3d games that aren't ports. I stand by that. Anything with cars or airplanes they had to port basically. I don't care what anyone says, that's how weak the Saturn was.


Being difficult to develop for and being underpowered are two very different things. The Saturn was certainly capable enough for open-world type games as evidenced by the Sonic World portion of Sonic Jam. It was just more efficient for developers to build games for the easier to program PSX and then port them to the Saturn. Unfortunately, this meant the quality of the Saturn games suffered and it was a bad look for the system.

That being said, considering the 32X did a lot of work in software, is cartridge-based, and is hamstrung to the Genesis hardware made it all the more impressive to see titles like Shadow Squadron, Virtua Fighter and the like.

ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 762
Joined: April 29th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » May 14th, 2021, 1:18 am

djc wrote:
I honestly don't think the Saturn could've drawn up from scratch a fully polygonal car game as advanced as Club Drive for the Jaguar. That's how weak the Saturn is for making original 3d games that aren't ports. I stand by that. Anything with cars or airplanes they had to port basically. I don't care what anyone says, that's how weak the Saturn was.


Being difficult to develop for and being underpowered are two very different things. The Saturn was certainly capable enough for open-world type games as evidenced by the Sonic World portion of Sonic Jam. It was just more efficient for developers to build games for the easier to program PSX and then port them to the Saturn. Unfortunately, this meant the quality of the Saturn games suffered and it was a bad look for the system.


He's just trolling. He already knows about Sonic Jam - when last we left him, he was claiming that adding basic enemy patterns instead of a Tails assist would break it.

I can only imagine how a Famicom is able to handle that kind of advanced AI.

Keep giving him attention, and he'll claim the Saturn is roughly a GBA.

Or less.

Personally, I'd rather hear him defend Club Drive some more. Watching the Jaguar's "64 bits" struggle to render nontextured cardboard boxes in slow motion never stops being entertaining.

That being said, considering the 32X did a lot of work in software, is cartridge-based, and is hamstrung to the Genesis hardware made it all the more impressive to see titles like Shadow Squadron, Virtua Fighter and the like.


Quoted for truth. It's basically Sega's answer to the Super FX chip and the Jaguar, except it has a better 3d library than both, combined.
Last edited by ThePixelatedGenocide on May 14th, 2021, 8:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 762
Joined: April 29th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » May 14th, 2021, 1:33 am

DrLitch wrote: sometimes less is more.


That really does define which games from this generation aged the best, doesn't it?

I wish more games had gone for Darxide's high contrast highlights on top of smooth lighter colors. It's taking all the advantages of cel-shading and minimalism, but using them to create something more gritty and realistic looking.

And it disguises the small number of polygons.

I can't think of anything else like it.

jon
Posts: 804
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby jon » May 14th, 2021, 11:12 am

I‘ve been saying for a while that the 32x looks better in 3d than the Saturn. I think the 32x was actually capable of making 3d games up from scratch.

The Saturn on the other hand wasn’t making 3d games. Everything was ported. You have to come to the conclusion that they just weren’t capable of doing anything more than a mild albeit 3d step up from 2.5d FPS type games.

If I’m supposedly wrong, why didn’t the Saturn even attempt to make its own 3d games? Every other 5th gen system made its own 3d games complete with use of cars and airplanes. Even the not successful systems had original 3d games with cars and airplanes that they made from scratch and weren’t ports. And Atari had a lot less money and resources than Sega at the time.

Jaguar: Club Drive, Cybermorph, etc.
3do: Starfighter actually got ported to the Saturn. What do you know. And apparently the Saturn version has terrible reviews.
Last edited by jon on May 14th, 2021, 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MSR1701
Posts: 603
Joined: April 29th, 2019, 7:53 am

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby MSR1701 » May 14th, 2021, 11:20 am

jon wrote:I‘ve been saying for a while that the 32x looks better in 3d than the Saturn. I think the 32x was actually capable of making 3d games up from scratch.

The Saturn on the other hand wasn’t making 3d games. Everything was ported. You have to come to the conclusion that they just weren’t capable of doing anything more than a mild albeit 3d step up from 2.5d FPS type games.

If I’m supposedly wrong, why didn’t the Saturn even attempt to make its own 3d games? Every other 5th gen system made its own 3d games complete with use of cars and airplanes. Even the bad systems had original 3d games with cars and airplanes that they made from scratch and weren’t ports.

Jaguar: Club Drive, Cybermorph, etc.
3do: Starfighter actually got ported to the Saturn. What do you know. And apparently the Saturn version has terrible reviews.


And Starfighter was ported to the PSX with blah at best reviews.

If I recall, wasn't Starfighter an Amiga game originally?

jon
Posts: 804
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby jon » May 14th, 2021, 11:25 am

Those were all ports of the 3do Starfighter. The PS1, Saturn, and computer versions of Starfighter are all ports.

The Jaguar with much less money and smaller teams somehow made its own original 3d games where you can control a car or airplane. That the Saturn doesn’t has to lead you to believe it was just a nightmare to make 3d games like that if it was even possible.

User avatar
DrLitch
Posts: 536
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 12:57 pm

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby DrLitch » May 14th, 2021, 11:29 am

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:
DrLitch wrote: sometimes less is more.


That really does define which games from this generation aged the best, doesn't it?



Absolutely, particularly the titles with minimalistic graphics that use art direction and good taste. I personally love the way old DOS titles and the Jaguar did the polygons, gave games a somewhat surrealistic look and personality. There are also good examples on all the consoles from that generation. Quite an interesting time if one likes to think of the human aspect to the design - the choices, constraints, workarounds, and graphical design. Thanks for the N64 Sin and Punishment recommendation on a thread a while back - that game has truly been a worthwhile use of my time, I love it and it stands out from the crowd on the N64. There are some GBA titles you recommended back then that are on my bucket list.


jon wrote:I‘ve been saying for a while that the 32x looks better in 3d than the Saturn. I think the 32x was actually capable of making 3d games up from scratch.


Although the Star Wars and Darxide are glorified tech demos I admit I always liked the way polygons looked back then when rendered in software. The Saturn was far more capable at 3D than the 32X if you want to count polys on screen - Virtua Fighter 2 would not be possible on 32X since no software renderer can keep up with hardware rendering on that front. Then there is resolution. Aesthetics now - different ballgame. I like the way 32X and Jaguar games (not Club Drive or Checkered Flag) looked when using their software rendering. Nice and clean with a surrealistic look. Pixelated vomit without artistic merit, no thanks, you can keep that even if 10X the number of polys are thrown on the screen.

User avatar
MSR1701
Posts: 603
Joined: April 29th, 2019, 7:53 am

Re: 2021/5/8: Sega 32X: Darxide (Europe)

Postby MSR1701 » May 14th, 2021, 11:59 am

When all is said and done, gameplay trumps graphics. As small as the 32X library is, there are more games I would go back to on the 32X than the Saturn (Virtua Racing on 32X is great, Darxide, one of the best MKII versions, Virtua Fighter, Blackthorne, Doom (not the best version, but still fun), Star Wars Arcade (Watch. For. Enemy. Fighters.), Primal Rage (guilty pleasure), Star Trek Starfleet Academy, and WWE Arcade (guilty pleasure again).

Saturn does have good and great games, though due to pricing and emulation, trying to play some have issues. And as much as I love RPGs, I don't have the time to invest in the RPGs of the Saturn, assuming I could afford them...


Return to “Review Feedback”