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Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 10:47 am
by scotland171

One of the complaints about the Sega Genesis (in conversations compared to the SNES) is the lack of RPGs.  Yet, when I look at the Sega CD library, I see several RPGs of note, such as Lunar The Silver Star, Lunar Eternal Blue, Shining Force CD, Vay, and Dark Wizard (and maybe Popful Mail).

Yet the Sega CD is not considered part of the Sega Genesis library...

Now go and see that the TG-16 includes the CD library....and the Jaguar includes its CD library...so why not the Genesis?

Since the Genesis vs SNES is the most famous console war in video games, shouldn't the library's reflect that?  Nintendo chose not to pursue its CD add on, Sega did...so Sega should get the nod for doing so. 

I can understand Dave's counter argument from a website use and design perspective, but given its importance as perhaps *the* console war, there is a good argument that the Sega Genesis library should be integrated into a single section.   


Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 12:54 pm
by goldenband1
Disagree with you on this one. I think the additional hardware added by the Sega CD -- including an additional CPU, 10 extra audio channels, etc. -- makes it, essentially, a separate platform. And then there's the $300 cost.

[QUOTE=scotland17]Now go and see that the TG-16 includes the CD library....and the Jaguar includes its CD library...so why not the Genesis?[/QUOTE]

The Jaguar's CD library is miniscule, though, and IIRC it doesn't add another processor or anything, so the difference is essentially just one of storage medium.

TG-16 is more debatable, but I can think of a few reasons to keep them integrated:
  • The Duo got a lot more traction than the CDX or X-Eye, so "all-in-one" solutions were a bigger part of the equation
  • Much smaller library encourages consolidation (there are nearly 1000 US/EU releases for the Genesis + Sega CD, vs. something like 134 for the TG-16 and its CD attachment)
  • The PC Engine CD attachment added less to its base system than the Sega CD did to its base system (as I understand it, it basically just adds RAM and a single audio channel)
That said, I wouldn't have a problem with separating out the CD games from the regular HuCards -- in fact, I think that's a good idea. I'd far rather see that happen than have all the Sega CD games lumped in with the Genesis.

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 1:09 pm
by ptdebate1
I'm with Scotland on this one. The CD and 32x aren't independent consoles (i.e., they require a Genesis), so I think they should be be lumped in with the Genesis.

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 4:06 pm
by Sut1
I'm just bummed that all but one of the Sega CD RPG's Scotland listed never got released here in PAL land!

It's an interesting argument. Sega went down the additional hardware route to fight the war, Nintendo consistently added performance enhancing chips in their game carts for their plan of attack in the great forth generation war.

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 5:40 pm
by Oltobaz1
One thing is for sure, Sega's console certainly held its own in the RPG department, even if you don't include Mega Cd's games. The three Shinings, the three Phantasy Stars, Warsong... throw in action RPGs for good measure like Landstalker and Light Crusader as well as the Immortal (this is back when Electronic Arts really meant something, just a die and retry atmospheric gem). I'd take the Mega Cd as the ultimate extension (Shining Force CD, the Lunars..) but the MegaDrive is legendary on the strength of its own cartridge Library anyways!

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 5:43 pm
by Orion1
I'm one of the biggest Sega fans, but I don't consider Sega CD or 32x part of the Genesis library.  Besides, it would create a big mess.  Combining them for "fairness" or to make the Genesis look better is not a good reason to do it.  This is a "critical" web site, so we shouldn't try to promote one system over another.

I'm in favor of separating the CDs from the other console sections though.

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 7:42 pm
by goldenband1
The real tragedy is the number of Sega CD RPGs that are totally untranslated -- around 20, some apparently quite good, with not a single finished fan-translation among them. (Work has been done on Shadowrun and Cosmic Fantasy Stories, but nothing we can play yet.)

And then there are all the strategy games, graphic adventures, etc. The Japanese-exclusive library seems to have a higher quality average, inasmuch as there are fewer FMV games and take-the-Genesis-game-and-add-CD-audio "upgrades". It adds about an additional 1/3 to the Sega CD library.

At least a good chunk of the non-English RPG library on the Genesis has been translated, though plenty are still left to go.

Anyway, as I said earlier, my preference is for the Sega CD and Turbografx-CD to continue to have their own sections, and for the Jaguar CD to stay where it is.

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 8:01 pm
by Rev1
Not a fan of grouping Sega CD titles with the 32X and Genesis. The games were sold as separate from the Genesis and had different packaging. This could cause problems where people are getting confused on what titles are for what console. As for the TCD, I could see that being a separate section but I'm fine with it either way. It would definitely make it easier to find which games are HU vs. CD but then again, the packaging of the games was exactly the same and the whole Turbografx library is a jumbled mess anyway. I think the biggest reason the Turbografx and the Turbografx CD should stay together would be-

1. The TurboDuo and the CD add on for the T16 both came with the HU Cards as part of the package.
2 Both the TurboDuo and the CD attachment required system cards to play some CD games (The TurboDuo needed the arcade card to play a select few games, while the CD attachment needed at least the Super System Card 1.0 (preferably the 3.0) to play most of the CD games), thus requiring the HU Card port. You could also look at this as separate game needed in order to play the CD based games, thus tying them together.
3. The library is a jumbled mess with games that are HU Card only, CD, Super CD, Arcade CD, with different requirements for each. The Sega CD only required the Sega CD add on, while the 32x only required the 32x add on (only like 5 games required you to have both).

Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 8:38 pm
by scotland171
It should be remembered that the Sega CD and the base unit Genesis co existed for several years. This is not a generational overlap, but genuine co existence. The first Lunar is a 1992 game, meaning Game Arts had to choose to go CD. Thus the Genesis library got spread over the two media at its peak, something the SNES did not.

Some games appear in both formats, like one of the Ecco games. The difference, for better or worse, were often miinmal. Ecco might have better music, but everything else seems the same.

Cost should not be a factor. The commodore has a native cartridge port, but you could buy a datasette, or for quite a bit more, a disk drive. Yet the C64 library is not trifercated by media.

As for extra capabilities, that is the point of an add on. The kinect has extra abilities over a base 360, so are kinect games a different library? No. They are just a subset of the same library.

Some games required a modem to play, like Modem Wars on the C64. Do those games belong in a different library. No.

The Atari 2600 has the Supercharger which adds RAM as well as enables tape loaded games. Different library? No.

The N64 has that little red expansion pack we plug in and then forget about forever. It enhances some games, and is needed for a couple like Majoras Mask I think. Does that mean Majoras Mask is not part of the same library just because it needs an accessory? (I am ignoring the N64DD)

So, there are other systems with capability enhancing add ons, but its all considered the same library.

The only notable difference is library size. The Mega CD, commercially unsuccessful was still comparitively successful as an add on compared to other add ons.

This is not directly advocating the genesis over the super nintendo; I am fond of both systems.




Its unfair not to have all the Sega Genesis games in one section

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 11:09 pm
by goldenband1
scotland17, I don't think any of your examples add an additional, more powerful CPU to the system, though.

That's really what differentiates the Sega CD, in my mind -- it has its own brain, and that brain does far more than just basic I/O functions. It has nearly everything it would need to be its own system, except a graphics encoder to send the video out to the TV (and controller inputs, obviously).

The Starpath Supercharger, N64 expansion pack, Intellivision ECS, etc. -- all of these are RAM packs, in effect (the ECS also adds a second sound chip and extra controller ports), and none even come close to containing a complete package of capabilities. And the Kinect, Commodore 1541, modems, etc. are all peripherals.

Really, I can't think of any other console product that's quite analogous to the Sega CD and the 32X. Coleco's system of expansion modules was headed in that direction, but even the recent Super Game Module really only adds RAM and a sound chip. Same with the 7800 XM, if and when that gets released: more RAM, a sound chip, and inputs, but no brain of its own AFAIK.

Maybe if the 3DO M2 had been released as originally intended -- a hardware expansion that dramatically increases the powers of the base configuration -- it'd be a good point of comparison.

If the Critic reviewed Supergrafx and Odyssey^3 (Videopac G7400) games, I wonder how they'd be classified -- as their own thing, or with their parent systems? Actually, speaking of the Videopac, its chess game did add a more powerful CPU to the system, but it wasn't usable for any other games.

Anyway, who really cares about making SNES fanboy types acknowledge the value of the Genesis? I'm weary of talking about the console wars -- it's really an excuse to indulge in a nerd version of tribalism and armchair historiography, and the only thing it ever accomplishes is amusing people who like watching Internet arguments. That kind of thing is in danger of ruining Sega-16, among other sites. I wish more people would write walkthroughs, review games, translate games, or do something that contributes to the world instead of wasting time with that stuff.

And quite frankly, if we're going to give Sega the nod for moving ahead their CD system, we should also recognize that supporting too many add-ons and systems was one of the things that damaged them badly in the mid-1990s. If they could've found a way to support more colors with the Sega CD, things might've been different, but that grainy, dithered FMV was pretty hard to accept.