Masterpieces?

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DaHeckIzDat
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Masterpieces?

Postby DaHeckIzDat » February 7th, 2023, 10:31 am

What games would you classify as masterpieces? Games that aren't just good, but deserve to be held above other games as examples of what it truly means to make a video game? And why?

My first one is...take a wild freaking guess...Dark Souls. Most games that set out to be hard don't balance things the way they should be. Either the enemies have too much health, the player has too little health, or both. Dark Souls is difficult in all the right ways, so that once you learn how to play the game by it's own rules, it stops feeling impossible and becomes engagingly challenging instead. There are so many different ways to build your character that each run can feel like playing a completely different game.

I'd also put Undertale on this list because it managed to be a fun game with one of the most engaging stories I've ever heard, all while being made with graphics that would look dated on the NES. Undertale made me laugh out loud and tear up, and any story that can move my cold, flinty heart like that must be doing something very right.

That's all I can think of now. I'm sure I'll come up with more later. So, what are yours?

Zack Burner
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby Zack Burner » February 7th, 2023, 12:27 pm

Here's my list:
Final Fantasy VII - Yes, I know the graphics haven't held up well (unless it's the battle and cinematics), but the story is nicely well written, love the characters, some great messages, and the music by Nobuo Uematsu. Cloud and Tifa are my favorite VG hero and heroine simultaneously.

Sly 2 Band of Thieves - While it is not without it's fair share of flaws, the story is well written, the ability to play as 3 in an open world stealth game and 8 levels of fun.

Super Mario World - Often considered Mario's greatest adventure, and for good reason, the colors are terrific, the music is memorable (I still hum/hear the Yoshi's Island theme), the powerups are memorable, and who could forget the debut of the loveable rideable dinosaur Yoshi?

Legend of Zelda a Link to the Past - The top down perspective returns and the puzzles and combat are just right

Super Mario Kart - Pure racing fun, with 8 memorable characters and many equally memorable tracks, a great game to play with friends and family. Where does the time go?

Mario Tennis - The GBC version is a great sports game with addicting gameplay and plenty of options including an RPG style story.

Golden Axe - Preferably played on the Arcade version, short and sweet escapism at its finest. A powerful barbarian, a hot amazon, and a cool dwarf, rideable dragons, it's like being in a Conan movie.

Chrono Trigger - Akira Toriyama's take into RPGs with memorable characters and a well thought out story. And who could forget the magic combo system?

Donkey Kong Country - The first one that made Rare a household name. The challenge is just right and no putting up with currency systems that hamper the fun like in the sequels. The CGI graphics still hold up quite well.

House of the Dead - Zombie shooting arcade fun at it's finest, though the sequel gets an honorable mention as well.

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Stalvern
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby Stalvern » February 7th, 2023, 1:58 pm

Interesting question. Just what is a masterpiece? Is it something really, really good? Or does it have some quality beyond, well, quality? In my understanding, a masterpiece is a work that perfectly articulates some special idea. All of its elements are in service to an inspired vision, and that vision is one of a kind. The examples of Dark Souls and Undertale in the OP excellently demonstrate this character.

I think that my favorite game, The Neverhood, doesn't actually warrant the term. Narratively and artistically, it's brilliant, but as an adventure game, it's obvious that the developers just randomly chucked in whatever puzzles they could think of, and they said as much – the puzzles are fun, and they sometimes connect in entertaining ways, but there isn't much of an overall vision informing them. In its gameplay, The Neverhood is largely a collection of arbitrary, self-contained bottlenecks that don't add up to a cohesive experience. (The cohesive experience in The Neverhood is everything else about it, although it does have a ramshackle quality that the haphazard design somewhat accords with.)

By contrast, my second-favorite game, Riven, is a laser-focused, inarguable masterpiece. Its elegantly imagined setting is of a piece with its intricately designed mechanics; both are inseparable from each other. Riven is fundamentally a game about systems, about learning, about culture. The game's world itself is a puzzle, and it's only a puzzle because it's alien to the player; to the D'ni who inhabit this place, and to the despot Gehn, it's perfectly ordinary. Playing Riven is an exercise in naturalization. Learning the D'ni numbers, operating Gehn's machinery, understanding the Fifth Age and the people within it, is an experience unprecedented before and unmatched since. In many ways, it might be the best game I've ever played, but I can't quite call it my favorite because the qualities that make it fascinating to play also make it impersonal and remote emotionally, unlike The Neverhood.

Finally, and moving away from adventure games, I have to mention Super Mario 64. It is miraculous that this game exists. Look at everything else that was around in 1995, when it was being developed, and look at Super Mario 64, springing forth fully formed like Athena from Zeus's head. Not only did it single-handedly create third-person 3D movement as we've known it ever since, it was bursting with creative scenarios for that movement's use. Every time I play it, I'm stunned by its combination of freedom and focus. How did they come up with so many things to do, and how come all of those things just work? A masterpiece, unquestionably.

I could go on and on like this about more games that I love (obvious choices: Earthbound, Abe's Oddysee, F-Zero GX), but I've typed quite enough. Thanks, OP, for giving me an excuse to think about this stuff.

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Matchstick
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby Matchstick » February 7th, 2023, 3:34 pm

Stalvern wrote:Riven

You beat me to it, good sir :)

I posted at length about this one around a year ago, over on a "Best Games of the 90s" thread.

https://videogamecritic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5084&t=13231&p=190704&hilit=Riven#p190704

Suffice to say, I agree with your points, particularly in regards to the game's focus on systems thinking. To "win," you must learn to recognize symbols in an ancient language, learn how to count using their numbers, and be able to recognize, pinpoint, and label exact geographic locations based on color. A fascinating game that challenged players to really study and absorb themselves into the game's environment.

(Or, you know, you could always buy the strategy guide, for $14.95 plus shipping...)

The biggest difference between Myst and Riven was the latter's focus on a cohesive, believable world. Gone were many of Myst's surreal fixtures, such as the pirate ship, rocket ship, piano keyboard, clock tower, and dentist's chair. Instead, the series of islands in Riven felt interconnected and real, despite being entirely foreign, full of alien plants, wildlife, and technology. Yet none of it seemed forced or out-of-place.

Playing the game in college was a significant influence on my decision to pursue careers in both graphic and audio design, as well as later life choices such as moving near the ocean and dedicating myself to local sustainability and environmental preservation efforts.

Hyperbolic as it may sound, I can honestly say that Riven changed my life.

As far as other "masterpieces," I tend to look at memorable games that really got the fundamentals right.

Pac-Man fits that bill perfectly. For many, it is the definition of a video game, and one of the most obvious examples of the medium. No need to teach anyone how to play it, what the buttons do, etc - just sit them in front of it, and the game explains itself. It's simple, addictive, and fun - what else could you ask for??

Tetris comes to mind, as well. It may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think "video game," but it is certainly the definition of a "puzzle game." Like Pac-Man, it's a fundamentally sound game with simple gameplay and a clear goal. Yet there are layers to it, not the least of which is the scoring system that dishes out more points as the game gets faster and faster.

Do you clear lines one by one, or hold off to get that four-line Tetris? And anybody watching you play will claim they can do better than you - and want a turn when you're done. It's almost as much fun to watch as it is to play, as it is a game that everyone seems to handle and understand a bit differently.

My final mention would be Street Fighter II. Like Tetris, it defines its genre for many gamers. I understand that some of us weren't around for the fighting game boom of the 90s, but for those that were, this game made for an unforgettable experience, drawing huge crowds and long lines seemingly wherever there was a cabinet.

I called the game "Digital Chess" back in the day (nevermind the Chessmaster series...) as the one-on-one combat forced two skilled players to think ahead and adapt to unexpected situations. It wasn't enough to practice and learn the moves - you practically needed someone of equal skill to play against if you really hoped to learn advanced strategies and nuances. The true challenge came from other players - not the game, itself.

Up until this point, most "fighting games" were either beat-'em-ups like Double Dragon, or stiff, unpolished one-on-one fighters like Karate Champ. Nevermind that those games had their merits, as well, but Street Fighter II just felt so fresh and refined in comparison to anything that had come before it.

While the premise was simple, the gameplay was not. Unlike Pac-Man and Tetris, Street Fighter II was not something that was instantly fun and understandable for many players. But it rewarded the players who were willing to invest the time to learn its systems, and paved the way for today's competitive gaming scene.

Fun topic! I'll stop myself here, but I'm absolutely looking forward to reading more posts.

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DrLitch
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby DrLitch » February 7th, 2023, 7:16 pm

Nier Automata.

Deserving a more than honorable mention => Witcher 3. The game that blew the doors off open world game design that frankly nothing comes close to it even today.

Factoring in nostalgia. Fallout 2. Absolutely outrageously phenomenal. A masterpiece in the CRPG genre that still gives me goosebumps to this day.

Dark Souls is a good choice. Mario 64 definitely belongs there. Final Fantasy VII is a solid JRPG choice. Not universally appealing but in it's genre it deserves most the praise it gets.

Castlevania Symphony of the Night anyone? While not the first in the genre of nonlinear sidescrolling adventures (so called Metroidvanias), I struggle to think of anything released since 1997 that actually tops it. Aria of Sorrow came close. Hollow Knight? Too many flaws and question marks regarding the originality of it's graphics. Is it blasphemy to suggest Symphony of the Night tops Super Metroid?

DaHeckIzDat wrote:I'd also put Undertale on this list


It is a work of art. Beauty and sorrow. One of the all-time greats.

Stalvern wrote:I think that my favorite game, The Neverhood


I have not heard this name in a long long time. I am pleasantly surprised to notice that someone here also likes this Windows 95 PC game. Great choice. Another favorite of mine. Never got a sequel although the character is in Skullmonkeys if memory serves me right.

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Stalvern
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby Stalvern » February 7th, 2023, 7:31 pm

DrLitch wrote:I have not heard this name in a long long time. I am pleasantly surprised to notice that someone here also likes this Windows 95 PC game. Great choice. Another favorite of mine. Never got a sequel although the character is in Skullmonkeys if memory serves me right.

Correct, although there was also a crowdfunded spiritual successor called Armikrog a while back. It looked fantastic but had absolutely nothing under the surface. Very disappointing.

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Matchstick
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby Matchstick » February 8th, 2023, 5:36 pm

Stalvern wrote:Neverhood

DrLitch wrote:Neverhood

Heh, this is one I've seen pop up on the boards a few times over the years. I'm always meaning to re-play it.

My cousins had it bundled with their Gateway computer back in the day, along with a few other titles. I remember playing it at their house and enjoying it, though not really managing to get too far.

Maybe I'll track down a Windows copy that I can play on Virtual PC using my iMac. Most 2D games from that era run flawlessly on that machine. If I get around to it, I'll post some thoughts on the "Now Playing" board.

DrLitch wrote:Is it blasphemy to suggest Symphony of the Night tops Super Metroid?

Absolutely not!

I considered myself a Metroid die-hard back when SOTN released, and even I eventually fell under the game's spell. Sure, there were a few bumps at the start (Castlevania with a sword... and a traditional experience point system??) but once I got into it, it was impossible to put down.

I have long told people that I feel SOTN is the best Metroid game ever made. Halfway jokingly, I suppose. But is it the best Castlevania? I dunno, Dracula's Curse is still out there... ;)

As much as I enjoy Super Metroid, the original NES title will always be my favorite when it comes to that series. I feel that Zero Mission may well be the best of the bunch, thought that is probably mostly due to how nostalgic I am for the original title. Still, that's the way to do a remake, and I put it and SOTN on par with each other.

Symphony of the Night is absolutely a classic, and belongs on this list, no question. Nice catch, Good Doctor!

DaHeckIzDat
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby DaHeckIzDat » February 8th, 2023, 7:26 pm

I agree about SotN. Exploring a massive gothic castle will always be more fun to me than exploring a series of caves.

I think I'll add Batman: Arkham Asylum to my list of masterpieces too. It's what got me into stealth games, and I still haven't found another game that does it better imo. I know most people consider Arkham City to be to high point of the franchise, but the smaller, more linear levels of Asylum made the whole thing feel more focused. The story is a lot of fun, the atmosphere is pure batcheese, and Mark Hamill's Joker will always be on my top five list of favorite villains.

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DrLitch
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby DrLitch » February 8th, 2023, 10:08 pm

Apart from well known titles it is the things you never played. Riven? Never played it. Played Myst way back when. Probably going to have to download Riven off GOG. Cannot let this go when two members here swear by it. I must play.... no idea how this one slipped through the cracks.

Some others:

Strategy - XCom UFO Defense (also known as Enemy Unknown), Starcraft.

RPG - Icewind Dale, Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Neverwinter Nights, Ultima Underworld 1,2

JRPG - Suikoden, Dragon Quest VIII, IX, Persona IV, V, Xenoblade Chronicles

FPS - STALKER Call of Pripyat, Half Life 2, FEAR, Halo 2

ARPG - Fable 2, Link to the Past, Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade, Nier Replicant, Y's 1+2, Elden Ring, Elder Scrolls 3,5.

I have always wondered if Donkey Kong Country is worth the praise it gets. Number 2 was, in many levels, unenjoyable. Thorns and barrels, horrible. The original had the mine carts and the lag makes it unplayable. I hope it is better on real hardware. I did not even bother with number 3. DKC Returns seems to be the best of the series.

Matchstick wrote:Heh, this is one I've seen pop up on the boards a few times over the years. I'm always meaning to re-play it.


You too? Neat, there are more retro PC gamers here than I thought :D

Hopefully folks here reading will give this one a shot.

I am pretty sure I never saw Neverhood on console although a Google search seems to indicate a Playstation port. Interesting.

Anyway, they do not make em like that anymore.

Matchstick wrote:I have long told people that I feel SOTN is the best Metroid game ever made. Halfway jokingly, I suppose. But is it the best Castlevania? I dunno, Dracula's Curse is still out there... ;)


I feel the same way. Super Metroid was phenomenal for its time but SOTN had a pretty solid challenge on top of it. Not crazy hard by Castlevania standards but Super Metroid gameplay feels more about hunting for items. Apart from perhaps that boss in Maridia taking bars of energy off Samus at a time when you only have a few Energy Tanks. Both have an immersive atmosphere. Soundtrack wise, SOTN is pretty phenomenal.

There are many that consider Rondo of Blood as being the peak of Castlevania. Hard to argue with that.

On dialogue alone. Rondo of Blood "I am Richter, Vampire Hunter". SOTN "What is a man? A miserable pile of secrets". That rivals Valis 2 :lol:

DaHeckIzDat wrote:I think I'll add Batman: Arkham Asylum to my list of masterpieces too.


I forgot about this one. For the time it was definitely a stand out and should be considered a contemporary classic. Yes Asylum over City as well.

bengalhoel
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Re: Masterpieces?

Postby bengalhoel » February 12th, 2023, 9:47 pm

Atari 2600- Pitfall
NES- SMB 3 ,
SNES- Super Mario World, Link to the Past, Super Metroid, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Mario Kart
PS1 - Final Fantasy 7.8.9 , Castlevania SOTN, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo 2, Resident Evil 2, Hot Shots Golf 2
PS2- Final Fantasy 12, GTA San Andreas, NFL 2k 5, Metal Gear 3, GOW 2,
PS3, - Last of US, Mass Effect 2, Red Dead Redemption
PS4-Elden Ring

Hand Helds
GBA-Legend of Zelda Minish Cap, Metroid Fusion/Metroid Zero Mission,
PSP-Hot Shots Golf Open Tee 2


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