Which system is the undisputed king of RPGs?

[JWK1]

@scotland17,

It's a matter of recognizing the difference between between JRPGs and WRPGs.  Like you said, computer RPGs were basically electronic versions of tabletop/D&D RPGs and were incredibly tough to play without a keyboard, so we got a couple of terrible versions of Ultima and Wizardry on NES and SNES, but that's pretty much it.  They stayed on home computers.  The Dragon Quest creators played tons of both Ultima and Wizardry and were inspired by them.  They found a way to put an RPG "type" game on the Famicom by making a simplified menu system.  And thus JRPGs were born.  

While they both share the moniker "Role Playing Game" and have a bunch of similarities, they're more different than they are the same.  cRPGs are typically made by Western developers (thus, WRPG), created natively for computers, have complex menus, prominently are set in mid-evil Europe, have clunky sword and magic-based controls, are defined by open worlds and player-controlled customization, have very little story and are enjoyed by PC-elitist d-bags who can't stand the thought of console peasants and don't have time for frivolous things like natural light and social interaction.  JRPGs are typically developed by Japanese developers, made with home consoles in mind, have simplified controls and menus, extra effort put into visuals and music, are far more focused on story and linear plot-lines, have turned based combat and are enjoyed by virgin weeaboos the world over, granted that they aren't watching animes or reading mangas.  [Hopefully, everyone realizes I'm being sarcastic about those who enjoy these types of games.  Hopefully the mods do, too.]

Personally, I don't care much for WRPGs, though they have been consistently popular for a while and have exploded in popularity on consoles.  JRPGs are on the rise, but only after a massive drought during the 7th generation.  JRPGs are my jam.  I love the combat.  Sure I like striking enemies with a sword, but I like the inherent uniqueness to the turn based combat system.  People complain that things haven't changed enough over the years with JRPG combat, but if you think about it the same could be said of platformers, run and gun games, beat em ups, First Person Shooters, etc.  Besides, there's a world of difference between Dragon Quest 1 and the Press-Turn/Smirk system of Shin Megami Tensei IV.  I keep trying to get into WRPGs and I can definitely appreciate some (Mass Effect series, Souls series-- though those are a mix of J and WRPGs, Dragon Age) and maybe someday I'll be able to fully embrace the genre.  But as of now, JRPGs are my favorite type of games.

[scotland171]

@JWK

Thanks for the nice conversation.  Yes, RPGs do have different flavors, but since the topic did not specify, I just thought I would put in my two guilders for WRPGs.  I came up on tabletop (which according to chick tracts means my afterlife destination is on the down escalator), where there has always been tension between 'role play' and 'game'.  What should matter more, getting roaring drunk at the local tavern with your mates, picking a fight with the one-eyed centaur in a kilt and playing out the repercussions, or a dungeon crawl against the kobold horde to rack up xp's?   Is it the sword and sorcery hacking, or the cooperative storytelling?  Two different things.

I don't know if Dungeons and Dragons was mostly a Western thing, but I think I recall reading that it was not a Japanese thing, so that JRPGs are a more recent thing.   I don't think 80s WRPGs lacked storytelling, just that it was more difficult in the earlier technological era (and so we got rogue-likes that take very little computing power or simple dungeon crawls like Bards Tale). 

I also recall reading not long ago the death dirge for turn based combat, and I guess its a sliding scale of what is turn based with various mechanics.  I enjoy turn based, even if the 'full broadsides' approach is hopelessly unfair to whoever goes second.

I also like many of the games people have mentioned from the 90s.  They are big time sinks, but they also satisfy many of the reasons to game, like the feelings of growth and accomplishment.  I still remember winning games like Phantasy Star with a smile. I got a nice JRPG for my DS Lite for Christmas, and looking forward to playing it.  Yet I know I can't get into any barfights with centaurs on it...

I wonder though, with modern MMORPGs, like Dungeons and Dragons Online, or browser based RPGs, is *now* the golden age of RPGs, and not 20 years ago?   
 

[JustLikeHeaven1]

This discussion is really interesting.  It seems like it has been split into the system that actually produce the best lineup of RPGs and then the system that just has the best lineup available.  

I think the champ is either the SNES, PS1 or PS2.  When I have more time I'll elaborate and try to see if I can pick a favorite.  My gut tells me it might actually be the Playstation 1...

[JustLikeHeaven1]

I'm gonna try and break it down by games for each system...I apologize this might get a bit long.

SNES

Top Tier RPGs

Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy II (IV)
Final Fantasy III (VI)
Earthbound
Secret of Mana
Orge Battle
Super Mario RPG
ActRaiser

Really Great RPGs

Illusion of Gaia
Lufia
Lufia II
Secret of Evermore
Robotrek
Shadowrun
Soul Blazer
Ys III
EVO

The SNES gets a lot of credit for being sort of the origin of the classic JRPG template that we all know and love.  I imagine this stems from two things.  1) The system had most of it's developers come from Japan.  2) The success of Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior laid the groundwork for console RPGs.  Square Soft and Enix really made a name for themselves with this console.  Many RPG fans will happily put Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy IV and VI, Actraiser and Super Mario RPG as some of the all time best RPGs.  That's some pretty hefty clout for the SNES.  

Then to it also had tons of secondary level games that helped round out the library.  While I don't think this tier is as good as say the PS1 and PS2...their top tier games are so legendary it might not matter.  I think the system's library also scores on depth and diversity.  It's not all swords n sorcery.

Playstation 1

Top Tier 

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VIII
Final Fantasy IX
Chrono Cross
Castlevania: SotN
Suikoden II
Vagrant Story
Final Fantasy Tactics
Xenogears

Really Great RPGs

Dragon Warrior VII
Suikoden
King's Field 
King's Field 2
Breathe of Fire III
Breathe of Fire IV
Brave Fencer Musashi
Deception
Grandia
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Destiny II
Legend of Mana
Lunar 2
Lunar Silver Star Story
Alundra
Orge Battle
Persona
Persona II
Star Ocean Second Story
Tactic's Ogre
Thousand Arms
Wild Arms
Vandal Hearts
Valkyrie Profile

Man just looking at this list makes me want to break out the PS1 and play some RPGs!  Plus there are tons of other offbeat stuff I didn't list like Monster Rancher, Azure Dreams, Blood Omen Legacy of Kain and more.  While I'm not sure the PS1's best games match the SNES's best offerings I think the library as a whole has way more depth.  Also, I think Dragon Warrior VII is one of the most underrated, overlooked RPGs of this era.  Square Enix needs to bring that 3DS remake to the states!  The game is so good.  I think the amazing thing is that some of the stuff I put in Really Great category will easily be considered Top Tier by other gamers.  There is just a wealth of RPGs on the system.  Plus I also consider ports and remakes to be part of a system's library...so toss Final Fantasy I, II, IV, V, VI and Chrono Trigger into the already stellar library.  We might have a winner!!!

Playstation 2

Top Tier

Dragon Quest VIII
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy X-2
Final Fantasy XII
Persona 3
Persona 4

Really Great RPGs

Shadow Hearts
Shadow Hearts Covenant 
Shadow Hearts - From a New World
Jade Cocoon 2
Ys: The Ark of Napishtim
Suikoden III
Suikoden IV
Suikoden V
Rogue Galaxy
Nocture
Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2
Devil Summoner 1 and 2
La Pucelle Tactics
Disgaea
Disgaea 2
Oden Sphere
GrimGrimoire
Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2
Star Ocean - Till the End of Time

This was the system where Square began to lose it's grip on the RPG crown.  They still had a great output with Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest...but they let Atlus and NIS America swoop in and deliver some huge hits.  When I look at this list...there are some really great games.  However, I just feel the best RPGs on this system rarely come close to matching RPGs on the SNES and PS1.  This generation is where the decline of the JRPG started.  Long gone were the overworld's and chibi style super deformed characters.  Instead you got lots of cell shaded games with anime inspired characters.  Also gamers began to complain about random battles and the tired tropes of the genre.  In an effort to move away from typical JRPG designs more western developers started get in on the genre.  Eventually in the next generation you'd see the rise of BioWare and Bethesda as the new kings of RPGs with their open world Western RPGs (bleck!).


I really think the PS1 might be the king of the RPG genre.  SNES comes in with a very close second place finish.

[Gentlegamer1]

Xbox. Morrowind FTW.

[ptdebate1]

Amazing list, JustLikeHeaven. Those should be essential playing for anyone who calls him or herself a JRPG fan.