Challenge

[ptdebate1]

[QUOTE=Vexer]

ptdebate- Your question makes no sense whatsoever, Dear Esther's story(if you can even call it that) was simply not compelling at all for me, it has nothing do with movies at all, i'd be fine with the lack of interactivity if the narrative.

Pacguy19- Don't really see how that's "oversimplification" at all as there's no interactivity whatsoever to speak of,  none of your examples make any sense whatsoever.  I have "thought that far", if you disagree that's fine, but if you can't accept my opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.

[/QUOTE]

What are your criticisms of the story of Dear Esther? Most people thought it was really good.

[pacguy191]

[QUOTE=Vexer]ptdebate- Your question makes no sense whatsoever, Dear Esther's story(if you can even call it that) was simply not compelling at all for me, it has nothing do with movies at all, i'd be fine with the lack of interactivity if the narrative.

Pacguy19- Don't really see how that's "oversimplification" at all as there's no interactivity whatsoever to speak of,  none of your examples make any sense whatsoever.  I have "thought that far", if you disagree that's fine, but if you can't accept my opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.[/QUOTE]
It seems like half your debate tactic is to claim that no one's argument makes sense.

There is no interactivity with movies. By your logic, movies are boring too.

Dear Esther was meant to focus on the story, not the gameplay. You're judging it by the wrong thing.

It's not about "disagreeing", it's about you not understanding why you expect too much out of a game that never intended to focus on those aspects to begin with.

[Vexer1]

pacguy19- Video games and movies are two completely different things though, so it dosen't make any sense at all to compare the two.  Video games by their nature are supposed to be interactive, and for something like DE to be sold on Steam in a manner that is at best misleading just comes off as dishonest to me.

It's not about me judging it on the wrong thing or not "understanding" why I expect too much out of it, I understand just fine, it's about you not being able to accept that your opinion is not the only one that's correct.

My criticisms of the story of DE is that it failed to evoke any kind of emotion from me whatsoever besides boredom, I'll admit it's good-looking, but that's about the only nice thing I can actually say about it, here's the video I was refering to, it explains why DE dosen't work in a much more succint way then I ever could, maybe now you'll actually be able to comprehend what i'm saying.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LmQrsD6b0[/video]

[pacguy191]

[QUOTE=Vexer]Video games by their nature are supposed to be interactive[/QUOTE]
I'm done here. Just because you're not doing anything intensive doesn't mean its not interactive.

[ActRaiser1]

Guys, Vexer stated his opinion.  You don't have to agree with it.  That's fine.  Let it go...

He doesn't have to like the same games as you.

On topic, back in the day I loved challenging games.  Now, I'm liable to set the game on easy to get through it as quickly as possible.

I guess that's the difference?  Back in the day I'd be lucky to get more than a few games a year but had considerably more time to hone my skills.  Now, I get several games a month.  The prices of games have gone down, my income has gone up; however, my time to play has gone down.  

One could almost come up with an Excel spreadsheet and graph it out.  

[velcrozombie1]

[QUOTE=pacguy19]There is no interactivity with movies. By your logic, movies are boring too.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, there are definitely limits to an argument like this. If someone created a film that is a single static 90-minute shot and then said "Oh, I suppose you don't like photography, either!" when anyone complained, they'd be an idiot. I'm not saying that people who make games shouldn't try to stretch the limits of what can be done, but they should do it with the strengths and weaknesses of their medium in mind along with the expectations of the audience (or at least those of their target audience). I haven't played Dear Esther yet, but it would be foolish to expect everyone to be on board with what it's trying to do or to not expect some criticism of it. I have no problem with it being on Steam, though.

I remember my cousin would rent PS1 games during the summer when we were both still in school and I'd go to his house to play. One time he rented Myst (a game that I knew enough about to know what was coming next): he turned on the game, messed around for a few minutes, and said "When do I get to shoot the guys?" It was hilarious, but it did a really good job of showing me that some people are just not going to be interested in exploring what games (or any other medium) can be beyond their own expectations. We took the game back and got something else, probably something more violent

[Gentlegamer1]

I tried to help put things like Dear Esther and Gone Home under the "Not a Game" tag on Steam, but Valve keeps removing it.

Perhaps because I grew up during the era of "Nintendo Hard," I enjoy and seek out challenge in games. I make my own story in a game, the narrative is the actions I took in response to the game mechanics and systems and their outcomes.

[pacguy191]

[QUOTE=velcrozombie]I haven't played Dear Esther yet, but it would be foolish to expect everyone to be on board with what it's trying to do or to not expect some criticism of it. I have no problem with it being on Steam, though.[/QUOTE]
I would have no problem if he didn't like Dear Esther but it's clearly an adventure. To say that it's not an adventure when all you do is walk around and look at things is silly though.

I'm not sure why I bothered though. I mean I hate it when people argue over what genre a band falls into and yet I just did it with games. Go figure.

[ptdebate1]

[QUOTE=Gentlegamer]I tried to help put things like Dear Esther and Gone Home under the "Not a Game" tag on Steam, but Valve keeps removing it.

Perhaps because I grew up during the era of "Nintendo Hard," I enjoy and seek out challenge in games. I make my own story in a game, the narrative is the actions I took in response to the game mechanics and systems and their outcomes.

[/QUOTE]

Gone Home is definitely a game though. I think there's a qualitative difference between it and Dear Esther.

Anyway, despite the fact that I love both of these...er...creations, I agree with your statement that the narrative should center around the player since the keystone of games is interactivity. The process of emergent narrative as you describe is the truest way to experience interactive story. It reminds me of Monster Hunter, a game often described as having "no plot" but which is nevertheless ripe with emergent narrative.

[DaHeckIzDat1]

I've been thinking a lot lately if it would be possible for a game to actually craft a story completely around the player's actions. I mean, take it even further than Mass Effect did. You start off with a completely clean slate, dropped off in the middle of a big open world, and the story starts forming itself the moment you begin to interact with what's going on . For example, you're just walking through the woods and you see somebody being attacked by bandits. You could run up and save the man, who would then run off and tell people he'd just been waved by a hero. A few minutes later, a bunch of the King's knights come riding up to you, saying that the king has heard of what you've done and would like you go join his army. You join as a high ranking officer, and are thrust into the war he's in with another kingdom. At the last moment, though, you betray the king and put a knife in his back, so you just created your own twist to the story, and suddenly everyone is hunting you down for high treason. On the other hand, could NOT save the man in the woods. You could let the bandits rob and murder him, and then stealthily go and kill the bandits for all their loot, thereby beginning a completely different story about you becoming a master thief.
Well, that was certainly a long winded explanation, but i finally got my point across. I know this will never happen, as it would take a ridiculous amount of data and memory, but hey- its a cool idea, right?