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The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 2:17 pm
by Atarifever1
[QUOTE=ptdebate] That second video actually looks really good--you have actual textures, visual effects like lens flare, and multiple transparency layers: things the Jaguar could rarely if ever pull off. Not to mention the palatable frame rate.[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure the PS1 actually could not pull off real transparencies, and was forced to fake it all the time.  I actually think either I said this once before here or on Atariage and was either corrected or backed up, and can't remember which. [smile]

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 3:54 pm
by goldenband1
I thought it was the Saturn that didn't have hardware support for transparency/alpha channel in 3D.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 4:33 pm
by ptdebate1
[QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=ptdebate] That second video actually looks really good--you have actual textures, visual effects like lens flare, and multiple transparency layers: things the Jaguar could rarely if ever pull off. Not to mention the palatable frame rate.[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure the PS1 actually could not pull off real transparencies, and was forced to fake it all the time.  I actually think either I said this once before here or on Atariage and was either corrected or backed up, and can't remember which. [smile][/QUOTE]

Hiya, Atarifever!

I think you may be thinking of the Saturn. I remember that being a major criticism of the console (that it couldn't pull off real transparencies, which even the SNES could do. It used some weird unsightly dithering effect to simulate them.

I don't remember hearing the same of the PS1, and it seems unlikely since there are so many PS1 games with transparencies...like this one, every Square game, SCEA game--heck, EVERY game that comes to mind. There's no possibility of add-on hardware being responsible for this as it's a disk-based console...

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 6:43 pm
by scotland171
3D definately got derailed...in 1982 with raster graphics. Real 3D is vector. Tail Gunner, Star Wars, Battlezone...now that was true 3D.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 6:50 pm
by Jon1
I can take the criticism ptdebate, although you're the only one defending the PS1, which I find just as significant as anything you have to say in this thread. Every 3d system since the 3do and Jaguar has been unappealing to me graphics wise. It doesn't spark the imagination. I also feel like arcade games from that era, especially the Sega Model 2, had that same great atmosphere of early 3d. The outdoor environments were breathtaking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyuJEKO2j1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7OYlmdhOZY

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 7:30 pm
by ActRaiser1
[QUOTE=Jon]I can take the criticism ptdebate, although you're the only one defending the PS1, which I find just as significant as anything you have to say in this thread. [/QUOTE]

Eh, more like I've learned my lesson from arguing with steer. Just because I'm not arguing with you doesn't mean I agree. Far from it. There's just no point as you've clearly made your mind up.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 7:50 pm
by Oltobaz1
Right, and the PS1 doesn't really need defending anyways. I understand you may not like how certain games looked back then and now, and you're entitled to your subjective opinion, but... that's about it, right? I mean, how did it derail anything? What are your arguments?

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 8:24 pm
by JWK1
[QUOTE=Oltobaz]Right, and the PS1 doesn't really need defending anyways. I understand you may not like how certain games looked back then and now, and you're entitled to your subjective opinion, but... that's about it, right? I mean, how did it derail anything? What are your arguments?[/QUOTE]

Olto has finished this discussion, Jon. The ps1 doesn't need defending. The end. Jon, you go on some of the most insane tangents in the history of this board. First the Jaguar is superior to the SNES. Now the 3DO is better then the PS1. I can't wait to hear how the Apple Pippin is better than the PS4 next month.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 8:40 pm
by Atarifever1
[QUOTE=ptdebate][QUOTE=Atarifever][QUOTE=ptdebate] That second video actually looks really good--you have actual textures, visual effects like lens flare, and multiple transparency layers: things the Jaguar could rarely if ever pull off. Not to mention the palatable frame rate.[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure the PS1 actually could not pull off real transparencies, and was forced to fake it all the time.  I actually think either I said this once before here or on Atariage and was either corrected or backed up, and can't remember which. [smile][/QUOTE] Hiya, Atarifever! I think you may be thinking of the Saturn. I remember that being a major criticism of the console (that it couldn't pull off real transparencies, which even the SNES could do. It used some weird unsightly dithering effect to simulate them. I don't remember hearing the same of the PS1, and it seems unlikely since there are so many PS1 games with transparencies...like this one, every Square game, SCEA game--heck, EVERY game that comes to mind. There's no possibility of add-on hardware being responsible for this as it's a disk-based console...[/QUOTE]

Now that I know is wrong.  The Saturn has hardware support for transparencies.  The confusion there is explained (in very, very deep detail) here.

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/blueshadows.html

My favourite bit of the whole thing is:
[QUOTE]Now we all know how bogus the "Saturn lacks transparencies" comment is, since the system already had lots of (mainly 2D) games with nice transparencies at that point.
 
But the thing is, if transparencies were used to generate blue versions of the character sprites, they'd look exactly like the Saturn's "snapped" shadows. Not the other way around. Putting a single colored transparency over a multi-colored image produces a blue tinted multi-colored image, not an image made up of blue shades.

The fact of the matter though, is that it's actually the mighty arcade hardware, that these two ports are trying to emulate, which lacks the ability to render 'real' transparencies. This, plus the facts that blue shaded shadows save a ton of memory and the developers might've wanted simple blue shaded shadows anyway is why they look the way they do in the arcade.
 
Why they decided to add optional higher color shadows in the Saturn version is a mystery, but a couple possible reasons are the fact that it makes for a nicer looking game and that maybe the Saturn really does use transparencies by default, to save the massive amount of memory needed for multiple version of every frame of animation. This would lead more credibility to the claims by hardcore SF fans, that the Saturn version has more animation than the PSX game. That plus the fact that the Saturn already has more ram to begin with.
 
So not only was the Saturn version trashed as being inferior graphically because of it's graphic superiority, but it's hardware was also trashed for lacking the ability to display what it was actually displaying (possibly using the ability it was being trashed for lacking)... all because it was displaying what the ability it was trashed for lacking would in reality appear as, instead of displaying what such an inability to display would in reality look like.
[/QUOTE]

Read the whole thing and that makes sense.  [smile]  

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: February 28th, 2015, 8:41 pm
by Jon1
I've outlined my arguments already in this thread. It's really astounding to me that ptdebate thinks Die Hard Trilogy looks "really good". Because to me those graphics look like dog **** and an example of why the PS1 seriously should've never gotten off the drawing board.