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The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 4:32 pm
by Jon1
Show me a 2d PS1 game that looks as good as these Jaguar clips and I'll stop. I have a feeling you guys won't even try to look because you know you can't. This is the technology I've been talking about that could have been the death knell to the SNES and Genesis come 1994 that to this day has never been actualized. And, I have this sneaky feeling that the emperor has no clothes here and that all of your PS1's are gathering dust while you count off all of these groundbreaking games. Heck, show me a 2d game on any system that looks as good as this Jag demo and I'll concede I was wrong. And, I think it's laughable to claim the PS1 was anywhere near the 2d system the Saturn was. That's just ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzKR7pFPb8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkbSa4jNOM

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 4:54 pm
by Oltobaz1
The second clip is nice, I really like the octopus, not that impressed with the first one though, I have to be honest. Demos always look good, you should check out the Atari St and/ or Amiga scene. Or the Net Yaroze's [wink] As far as games, you really think nothing ever touched this? Seriously?

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 6:31 pm
by goldenband1
[QUOTE=Jon]all of your PS1's are gathering dust[/QUOTE]

I played my PS1 more last month than any other system except the NES!

Oddly enough, I also brought my Jaguar out last night, for the first time since last year. It's a nice-looking 2D system if you have decent AV cables, no doubt about it.

It's a pity so many of the games are half-baked. The one I pulled out last night, Trevor McFur, doesn't even have music during the main gameplay, which makes it feel like a middling early-1990s Macintosh shareware game. And ugh, the D-pad on that controller felt like it was going to give me tendonitis after a while.

I actually kind of like Hover Strike, despite the sometimes-horrendous framerate and repetitive gameplay. Beat it on Easy last year, so I'm due for a replay on Normal.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 7:15 pm
by Atarifever1
Well guys, to each their own I guess.  If you'll excuse me, I have to go play the best 8-bit system of all time: The 7800.  Man, have you seen how flicker free Robotron is on this thing?  Good luck getting that out of the NES.  [smile]  

Seriously though, I think maybe when I talk about the "ugly mud" generation, I forget that other people really like it, so perhaps my flippant responses about which mud pie has the best flavour should be kept to myself. [wink] #lastoneipromise

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 8:19 pm
by Voor1
It's just how technology works. New stuff comes out, people flock to it, and that's where the money for development and consumption goes. But there's always old school guys that still like to explore possibilities and potentials with the older equipment. Nothing wrong with that, and cool stuff always surfaces, but you can't get mad at history. Just enjoy things for what they are. The Jag had some impressive capabilities, but unfortunately, there were also limitations and/or poor decisions that made it less successful. If anything, be mad at Atari for that.....

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 10:17 pm
by goldenband1
[QUOTE=Atarifever]The Saturn has hardware support for transparencies.[/QUOTE]

In 2D, yes, but the 3D support is apparently glitchy and super-slow. See [url=http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?19962-Inconsistent-transparent-effects-on-Saturn-games]here[/url] for a detailed discussion of the hardware issues, which seem very complicated but boil down to the PlayStation having a huge advantage in that department.

The link you posted seems to relate to one specific arcade game, and a 2D one at that, so I think it's a different issue from the Saturn's well-documented struggles in 3D.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 1st, 2015, 10:22 pm
by Jon1
I never said the Jag had better 3d capabilities than the PS1. Even with the shocking revelation years after its demise that programmers had no idea how to use the machine, it still wouldn't have been able to maintain a frame rate as fast as the PS1, for instance. But that's really not that big of an issue, it still would have been much nicer looking with much greater capabilities for lighting effects as shown in Hover Strike CD. I believe that it would have been able to build significantly on a game like that or Skyhammer, and have a significantly higher frame rate (although admittedly not as fast as the PS1), as well as a huge improvement in the number of textured polygons, which as we know was a huge problem. They might have also been able to fix the draw distance problem that hurt a lot of games. Combine that with the already acknowledged 2d capabilities, and it really had a ton of potential.

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 5:29 am
by Atarifever1
[QUOTE=goldenband][QUOTE=Atarifever]The Saturn has hardware support for transparencies.[/QUOTE]

In 2D, yes, but the 3D support is apparently glitchy and super-slow. See [url=http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?19962-Inconsistent-transparent-effects-on-Saturn-games]here[/url] for a detailed discussion of the hardware issues, which seem very complicated but boil down to the PlayStation having a huge advantage in that department.

The link you posted seems to relate to one specific arcade game, and a 2D one at that, so I think it's a different issue from the Saturn's well-documented struggles in 3D.[/QUOTE]
That makes a ton of sense.  The system was designed for 2D after all.  

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 10:39 am
by JWK1
[QUOTE=Jon]Show me a 2d PS1 game that looks as good as these Jaguar clips and I'll stop. I have a feeling you guys won't even try to look because you know you can't. This is the technology I've been talking about that could have been the death knell to the SNES and Genesis come 1994 that to this day has never been actualized. And, I have this sneaky feeling that the emperor has no clothes here and that all of your PS1's are gathering dust while you count off all of these groundbreaking games. Heck, show me a 2d game on any system that looks as good as this Jag demo and I'll concede I was wrong. And, I think it's laughable to claim the PS1 was anywhere near the 2d system the Saturn was. That's just ridiculous.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzKR7pFPb8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkbSa4jNOM[/QUOTE]

Those demos look great! No why isn't there a single full retail game on the system that looks anywhere near that good?? Hmmm. Interesting.

Speaking of ridiculous, how about this notion that the Jaguar could have been the end of the SNES and Genesis? Playing the "what if" game 20 years later is just... dumb. What if the Jaguar had a couple decent games? Man that would have been awesome! But no, games and reality are far less compelling than 4 second tech demos and dreaming of an alternate reality where the Jag had a game good enough to keep it from a spectacular failure.

I've played Suikoden every day for the last two weeks. I just played Persona 2: Innocent Sin and Lunar Silver Star Story before that. I play my PS1 all the time. Do you play your Jaguar... ever. Hats off to you if you can stomach it.

Perhaps a more appropriate thing to do would be to compare 2D games that, you know... exist. Is there a 2D game on Jaguar that looks as good as Megaman X5?

The Derailment of the 3d Genre

Posted: March 2nd, 2015, 3:28 pm
by Jon1
The only PS1 games you guys ever mention playing are RPG's. What about the people that don't like RPG's. You act like it doesn't matter that there's little else that stands the test of time. And I don't even know how much 3d is in the games you're talking about, because I'm surely not interested in researching it. I didn't need the reassurance. I already knew I was arguing with a bunch or RPG fanatics with a skewed perspective on things.