The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

General and high profile video game topics.
Atarifever1
Posts: 3892
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Atarifever1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:55 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]There's nothing to talk about until someone gives me a credible explanation as to why advanced 2d technology was squashed in the early 90s.[/QUOTE]

Not until you explain to me why 2D technology was squashed in the early 90s.  Who squashed it?  How?  To what end?  Who was on the take?  Who gave the orders? Who specifically targeted (of all things) Atari? The Atari coming off the death of their computer dominance, the 7800, and the Lynx, which surely required no further squashing.  The Atari with less than 100 employees for much of the Jag's life, competing with billion dollar companies.  That Atari had to be squashed?  Why?  

Your question makes little to no sense right now, so it can't be answered until you clarify it.  I will provide you with a similar question, to show why we have this difficulty currently:

Jon, I ask a simple question: Why were all the unicorns killed by Dragon-birthed demons in 1066?  Until you can answer that simple question, I know I am right about the current lineage of horses being corrupt.  

You can`t answer that question, for obvious reasons.

Jon1
Posts: 378
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Jon1 » March 2nd, 2015, 4:06 pm

I've stated time and time again that the Jag is but one mere example of this technology. Any company could have put out a console that had advanced 2d capabilities at that point, even a 3d console for that matter. But it never happened. We all agree that there hasn't been one game ever made that showcases this technology. That's astounding and indefensible. And you claim my arguments are indefensible? You guys' arguments have more holes than swiss cheese. And I've proven in my posts, and it's been agreed upon by you guys, that the market in retrospect was there for 2d, evidenced by the huge success of the Wii and Wii U's 2d platformers. Remember, there wasn't a 2d Super Mario game starring Mario from 1991-2006. That's astounding. It's even more astounding when you consider that every one of them up to and including 1991's Super Mario World, had been a top 5 system seller, and so has everyone since. What there was, and I have no proof, but seemingly there was a push away from 2d and everyone was discouraged from making 2d games. Again, you guys are ignoring crucial evidence and making generalizations based on assumptions. Your lucky I even put up with it, although my patience is waning.

ZetaX1
Posts: 577
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby ZetaX1 » March 2nd, 2015, 4:23 pm

[QUOTE=Atarifever]Why were all the unicorns killed by Dragon-birthed demons in 1066?  Until you can answer that simple question, I know I am right about the current lineage of horses being corrupt.  

You can`t answer that question, for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE]

Wait...there are no unicorns?

[confused][mad][frown][bawl][smile]

Seriously though, I'm with you guys.  I don't believe that there was a concerted effort made by Nintendo, Sega, and/or Sony to quash the furthering of 2D video game technology.  A much less nefarious scenario might be that 3D-capable systems simply became "doable", and everyone (perhaps reluctantly, in Sega's case) jumped on-board.

And yes, those emoticons were the 5 stages of loss and grief...for the unicorns.

JustLikeHeaven1
Posts: 2971
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby JustLikeHeaven1 » March 2nd, 2015, 4:31 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]I've stated time and time again that the Jag is but one mere example of this technology. Any company could have put out a console that had advanced 2d capabilities at that point, even a 3d console for that matter. But it never happened. [/QUOTE]

Forgive me, but I haven't read this entire discussion or the other thread for that matter.  I'd argue that there was in fact a machine that was put out to clearly capitalize on 2D gaming.  It was called the Neo-Geo.  It was super expensive and nobody bought it.  It's still expensive and it's still awesome.  Probably the pinnacle of 2D gaming in many ways.  

Jon1
Posts: 378
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Jon1 » March 2nd, 2015, 4:50 pm

The Neo Geo is my favorite system. But this technology I'm talking about was incredibly advanced and it's ridiculous it never saw the light of day. Even if it did, the Neo Geo is still a great system. No one has been able to counter my argument that 2d never experienced a deep decline in popularity, but that it was just ignored. And since I went into this thread seeking answers, I never got any. Which leads me to the conclusion that for whatever reason there was a concerted effort to prevent the evolution of 2d. And I'm done with this thread, unless someone can provide an explanation as to why this happened. Not some excuse that I can easily pounce on like the last one.

Sut1
Posts: 789
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Sut1 » March 2nd, 2015, 5:18 pm

But Sega designed the Saturn to be the ultimate 2D console, but belatedly added further chips so it could do 3D as that was what the market was craving. Trust me Sega didn't want to move from 2D so quickly.

If the market trends continued in 2D Saturn would have been the runaway winner.

Oltobaz1
Posts: 1605
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Oltobaz1 » March 2nd, 2015, 5:19 pm

A couple of concise observations:

- This Native project wasn't actually lost, it eventually resurfaced as Sturmwind, a full fledged game with even better visuals, technologically speaking.

- You're right, 2D did experience a decline in popularity at some point due to the emergence of 3D tech. People wanted to see and experience the new stuff so companies gave people what they wanted. Such a grand scheme.  2D is still around though, and is actually doing well, thanks to retrogaming to some extent.

JWK1
Posts: 904
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby JWK1 » March 2nd, 2015, 5:34 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]The Neo Geo is my favorite system. But this technology I'm talking about was incredibly advanced and it's ridiculous it never saw the light of day. Even if it did, the Neo Geo is still a great system. No one has been able to counter my argument that 2d never experienced a deep decline in popularity, but that it was just ignored. And since I went into this thread seeking answers, I never got any. Which leads me to the conclusion that for whatever reason there was a concerted effort to prevent the evolution of 2d. And I'm done with this thread, unless someone can provide an explanation as to why this happened. Not some excuse that I can easily pounce on like the last one.[/QUOTE]

Gaming experienced a decline in 2D?! Welcome to the kiddie pool, Jon! No one is arguing this incredibly obvious fact. Your making an argument that the rest of us acknowledged 20 years ago. Think about that; the rest of us knew this 2 decades ago. It's not our fault you're 20 years late to the party.

If your purpose in this thread is honestly to understand why a decline in 2D happened, ptdebate has answered that. It resulted from a decline in popularity. Gamers in the early to mid 90's wanted 3D games and developers obliged. Why didn't the developers create the niche gaming market that you desire, where the insanely expensive Neo Geo and the Jaguar ruled the day? Because they didn't care about what Jon wanted. They wanted to make money. And guess what? They were right. Gaming exploded with the PS1 and it sold more than the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, Neo Geo and Jaguar combined.

One of your other "points" is that early 3D games (specifically on the PS1) haven't aged very well. Again, congrats on your first time in the kiddie pool! The rest of us knew this about 15 years ago.

None of *those* points would have been considered new in 2000. We already know this stuff and have for a long time. That's why we are focusing on your other points-- a four second demo is the greatest thing EVAR, the PS1 shouldn't have existed, my opinions = facts, every game on the PS1 was an RPG-- because they're so ludicrous. If you want to have a discussion when you're all caught up to 2015, let us know. Or don't. Either way.

ZetaX1
Posts: 577
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby ZetaX1 » March 2nd, 2015, 7:37 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]And I've proven in my posts, and it's been agreed upon by you guys, that the market in retrospect was there for 2d, evidenced by the huge success of the Wii and Wii U's 2d platformers.[/QUOTE]

So your argument is that recent 2D sales are proof that everybody still wanted 2D games 20 years ago, when the new hotness was 3D?

My brain is hurting...I'm done.

BanjoPickles1
Posts: 1321
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby BanjoPickles1 » March 2nd, 2015, 8:01 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]It's appalling how you guys disregard facts I present and make up your own stories. First off, no one has been able to explain why advanced 2d technology was squashed in 1993 to keep Sega's and Nintendo's primitive systems on top of the industry, and then quickly transition to ugly, underwhelming 3d. Why not? Could it be that there is no credible explanation? And I said I'd stop bolding my comments, but no one can answer that question. Secondly, it was proven that the developers didn't need to rely on the 68k and that there was never a game that came close to pushing the system to the limit. For you guys to disregard that fact and say things like, you see, it wasn't capable of producing games equal to those 5 second clips or the playable Native level. Well, you're right. The developers didn't know how to use the system, which we all know has been proven. Therefore, basically everyone arguing with me makes absolutely no sense. Third, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at Native side by side with Sturmwind to realize that the Dreamcast had a terrible fog problem that did a disservice to the original demo. I think it's laughable that you guys claim I need to articulate that, just look at videos, they don't lie. And, for the millionth time, I never said the Jag had better all around 2d capabilities than the Dreamcast, just that the Dreamcast's 2d graphics were very blurry and, since they were supposedly carrying the torch for 2d, it's an extreme disappointment. But just looking at the videos, the Jag never had that fog problem. I asked a question in my last post that no one answered. Guess what? It proves I'm right and you guys just purposely ignored it because you can't touch it.[/QUOTE]

I don't even know where to start with this load of crap, but I'll do my best:

Nobody killed the Jaguar, or advanced 2D graphics, but popular opinion. As a teenage consumer, in 1994, I can tell you that what I played of the Jaguar left no impression on me. It plays Doom?! Great! My PC does it better! You need more than three great games to sell a system to the masses, my friend. That Native demo is pretty, but ITS JUST A DEMO (and a four second demo at that)!

Consumers wanted 3D. I wanted 3D. I loved the 2D stuff that I got on my snes, but games like Starfox and Virtua Fighter seemed like the future. Just as the 2600's graphics were the smelly armpit of the 2D era, 3D graphics had to go through a couple of rough generations to get to where they are today.

There was no conspiracy. Atari was understaffed. They were also cheap, and they alienated the industry's most influential third-parties (research it). Look at their launch titles. Apart from Doom, what did they have? Trevor McFur? Pass!

Consumers pay less attention to what looks good and more to what is FUN! Price is also a factor. Your NEO Geo didn't stand a prayer, nor did the 3DO. The snes and genesis had the mass market price, third party support, first party commitment, advertising dollars, media muscle, and plethora of games to back it up. That's why both systems are always on every top ten consoles list known to man. How many worst consoles lists has the jaguar made an appearance on?


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