Calling something 'for children' does not excuse poor quality, and makes all the propaganda in those films all the worse. It is easy to throw stones at Song of the South, but modern Disney movies have their own sets of negative flaws, bias, and discrimination.
And obviously gaming needs more than Nintendo, I have never in my life heard anyone suggest that gaming should be 'only Nintendo' But that has nothing at all to do with this thread. This is about where game cinema is now, and where it will go in the future.
David Cage (Heavy Rain) talks about games being nowhere close to film as a story telling medium
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Segatarious1
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm
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ptdebate1
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David Cage (Heavy Rain) talks about games being nowhere close to film as a story telling medium
[QUOTE=Segatarious][QUOTE=scotland17][QUOTE=Segatarious] Look at this board as proof. It has no plot, no deeper meaning, no underlying narrative or moral....just discussions, that end at any time, or are derailed or become pointless in short order, any kind of random outcome, and never a resolution. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Rev]Ironically, Steer did this exact same topic like 6 months ago. I'm pretty sure it was locked after a bunch of grueling debates. [/QUOTE]
Ironically, this thread itself is a metaphor for an interactive narrative, like a video game. Begin with the same premise, but where the story leads will be different.
That is not a criticism, but simply a difference. It reflects a vitality drawn from being interactive that is absent from static media. Moby Dick is static, what changes is the person reading and interpreting it. One can read many things into and get many things out of Moby Dick, but Ahab dies in all of them. A game based on Moby Dick would not, should not, carry the hammer of the morality play Melville was preaching, but rather could become something else.
[/QUOTE]
You cannot change story leads without destroying your moral. Without a moral, the narrative has no point. That is not art, the randomness of it all would make it like life, except not nearly as deep as life. Because it is obviously impossible to program anything resembling the complexity of life. Life creates art, to explain or appreciate life. Games can only be games, or simulate life in a cheap way.
In today's narrative games, you have to complete a game play objective to advance the plot. Or, you go on a side quest, which is an optional game play branch away from the main story, and not necessary to complete the story. That is cheap and tawdry to art. If the story is so damn important, and has to be told, why are you throwing cheap game play in there to interrupt it? Again, even a compelling narrative in a game would be destroyed by the game play.
Making a life simulation game, Like the Sims or Animal Crossing, is not art, because it has no point. People may find it fun, but it is not art, because their is no resolution, and there is no point to the story, just to play as long as you are still enjoying the game world.
Arcade games are not art - they may have a premise to 'explain' the game play, if they even have that. They are games in the purest sense - the game is all about becoming skilled at the game play. It succeeds and fails based on how fun it is to play.
So this leaves Mr Cage, in search of his Game Narrative Holy Grail, with vague, unattainable goals - that he postulates will happen 'incrementally' (if at all), and grasps at the straws of 'interactive Shakespeare', which is nothing, and means nothing. That is the same as me going into my garage, looking at the wrench set grandma gave me for Christmas, and saying 'jet pack'. Sure it is theoretically possible I will build one, right? But none of have any notion of how it could happen at all, and taking apart the vacuum cleaner for the hell of it should not be called 'progress' towards this goal.
[/QUOTE]
In his pursuit of that "narrative holy grail," Cage has actually entirely missed the point of art games, a subculture that has existed, apparently unbeknownst to him, for over 30 years (see my original post). You seem to think that everything we call a "videogame" actually constitutes a "game." Such is not the case. While I agree that "games" require concrete objectives to be fulfilled and have fun as their primary object, we are seeing the industry become gradually less focused on the sine qua non of ludology and more focused on experimentation with new ideas or standards (the Chinese room, Jason Rohrer, Jenova Chen).
[QUOTE=Rev]Ironically, Steer did this exact same topic like 6 months ago. I'm pretty sure it was locked after a bunch of grueling debates. [/QUOTE]
Ironically, this thread itself is a metaphor for an interactive narrative, like a video game. Begin with the same premise, but where the story leads will be different.
That is not a criticism, but simply a difference. It reflects a vitality drawn from being interactive that is absent from static media. Moby Dick is static, what changes is the person reading and interpreting it. One can read many things into and get many things out of Moby Dick, but Ahab dies in all of them. A game based on Moby Dick would not, should not, carry the hammer of the morality play Melville was preaching, but rather could become something else.
[/QUOTE]
You cannot change story leads without destroying your moral. Without a moral, the narrative has no point. That is not art, the randomness of it all would make it like life, except not nearly as deep as life. Because it is obviously impossible to program anything resembling the complexity of life. Life creates art, to explain or appreciate life. Games can only be games, or simulate life in a cheap way.
In today's narrative games, you have to complete a game play objective to advance the plot. Or, you go on a side quest, which is an optional game play branch away from the main story, and not necessary to complete the story. That is cheap and tawdry to art. If the story is so damn important, and has to be told, why are you throwing cheap game play in there to interrupt it? Again, even a compelling narrative in a game would be destroyed by the game play.
Making a life simulation game, Like the Sims or Animal Crossing, is not art, because it has no point. People may find it fun, but it is not art, because their is no resolution, and there is no point to the story, just to play as long as you are still enjoying the game world.
Arcade games are not art - they may have a premise to 'explain' the game play, if they even have that. They are games in the purest sense - the game is all about becoming skilled at the game play. It succeeds and fails based on how fun it is to play.
So this leaves Mr Cage, in search of his Game Narrative Holy Grail, with vague, unattainable goals - that he postulates will happen 'incrementally' (if at all), and grasps at the straws of 'interactive Shakespeare', which is nothing, and means nothing. That is the same as me going into my garage, looking at the wrench set grandma gave me for Christmas, and saying 'jet pack'. Sure it is theoretically possible I will build one, right? But none of have any notion of how it could happen at all, and taking apart the vacuum cleaner for the hell of it should not be called 'progress' towards this goal.
[/QUOTE]
In his pursuit of that "narrative holy grail," Cage has actually entirely missed the point of art games, a subculture that has existed, apparently unbeknownst to him, for over 30 years (see my original post). You seem to think that everything we call a "videogame" actually constitutes a "game." Such is not the case. While I agree that "games" require concrete objectives to be fulfilled and have fun as their primary object, we are seeing the industry become gradually less focused on the sine qua non of ludology and more focused on experimentation with new ideas or standards (the Chinese room, Jason Rohrer, Jenova Chen).
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TheLastNightmare1
- Posts: 158
- Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm
David Cage (Heavy Rain) talks about games being nowhere close to film as a story telling medium
It's curious he'd say a play.
Because that sort of thing happens in interactive mediums all the time. It's called Second Life, or IMVU. You construct an avatar. You find a stage. You act out your part in the story, and the best storytellers will weave you into the worlds they've created. There are core gameplay mechanics, but they're agreed to by the players. Flirting, for example, may lead to a duel of wits, or an exciting chase scene.
Or even lead to other kinds of co-op multi-player, offline.
And nobody beyond these games cares, or even notices, because we're conditioned to think of games as something strictly enforced by pre-existing code.
Now imagine trying to create the same magic through a pre-programmed engine, or an AI? Will you win the trust of the troubled dialogue tree?
Better save, before trying, just in case...
With that said, there's so much more developers could be doing, in terms of creating characters worth knowing. Imagine a Western RPG where some of the NPCs actually take the initiative to find out more about you?
Because that sort of thing happens in interactive mediums all the time. It's called Second Life, or IMVU. You construct an avatar. You find a stage. You act out your part in the story, and the best storytellers will weave you into the worlds they've created. There are core gameplay mechanics, but they're agreed to by the players. Flirting, for example, may lead to a duel of wits, or an exciting chase scene.
Or even lead to other kinds of co-op multi-player, offline.
And nobody beyond these games cares, or even notices, because we're conditioned to think of games as something strictly enforced by pre-existing code.
Now imagine trying to create the same magic through a pre-programmed engine, or an AI? Will you win the trust of the troubled dialogue tree?
Better save, before trying, just in case...
With that said, there's so much more developers could be doing, in terms of creating characters worth knowing. Imagine a Western RPG where some of the NPCs actually take the initiative to find out more about you?
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