You Have to Go Online

General and high profile video game topics.
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Stalvern
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby Stalvern » April 8th, 2020, 7:15 pm

David wrote:I'm all for being against bad business practices like releasing unfinished games, crappy DLC and the like, but I don't think having the ability to have the game patched at a later date is bad business.

The problem is that the latter is used to legitimize the former. Give corporations an inch, and they take a mile, by nature.

David
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby David » April 8th, 2020, 7:26 pm

Stalvern wrote:
David wrote:I'm all for being against bad business practices like releasing unfinished games, crappy DLC and the like, but I don't think having the ability to have the game patched at a later date is bad business.

The problem is that the latter is used to legitimize the former. Give corporations an inch, and they take a mile, by nature.


You don't think there's nuance to be had? Star Wars Battlefront 2 dropped lootboxes due to people being angry. Diablo 3 got rid of the auction house. To reference the other thread, No Man's Sky has been significantly improved upon for years now when they could've just left it. If people really wanted to fight this as an all or nothing thing it was twenty years ago. The PS5/Xbox isn't going to be revealed with a tag line of "Now with less online features and no way for developers to improve their games!"

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Stalvern
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby Stalvern » April 8th, 2020, 11:21 pm

David wrote:You don't think there's nuance to be had? Star Wars Battlefront 2 dropped lootboxes due to people being angry. Diablo 3 got rid of the auction house. To reference the other thread, No Man's Sky has been significantly improved upon for years now when they could've just left it. If people really wanted to fight this as an all or nothing thing it was twenty years ago. The PS5/Xbox isn't going to be revealed with a tag line of "Now with less online features and no way for developers to improve their games!"

I'm not saying that it can't be used constructively. What I'm saying is that it, on balance, makes things worse for players overall. It is the nature of systems to be exploited. I don't think there's anything to be done about it, nor was there ever.

I'm biased in favor of online distribution because of my experiences with indie games, but it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to notice that, across the board, tech companies are trying to get people plugged into more and more services and trying to shift software to a service-based model in general. This isn't because it makes things better for anyone besides themselves.

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VideoGameCritic
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby VideoGameCritic » April 9th, 2020, 9:39 am

Stalvern,
Well stated!

It reminds me of when banks replaced most of their human tellers with ATMs, and of course saved millions of dollars in the process. But they didn't stop there. They had the nerve to start charging their customers "convenience fees". Why? Because they could.

bluenote
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby bluenote » April 9th, 2020, 10:06 am

VideoGameCritic wrote:Stalvern,
Well stated!

It reminds me of when banks replaced most of their human tellers with ATMs, and of course saved millions of dollars in the process. But they didn't stop there. They had the nerve to start charging their customers "convenience fees". Why? Because they could.


Good lord critic, how old are you, 80??! Now you're complaining about banks implementing ATMs?? :D

I'm kidding of course Critic!

But seriously, I don't see what the big deal is. I buy a game, do a 45 min install/update online, and then play. If the game prompts me to go online, I exit and play offline. Done. Agree to a EULA? Okay, why not? Click accept and done.

Good debate though everyone. As always, I love how people on this forum can disagree and be respectful of one another. It's good to hear differing opinions from your own. This is what sets this forum apart from other video game forums!

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VideoGameCritic
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby VideoGameCritic » April 9th, 2020, 11:32 am

bluenote - Is your message serious? Look at what you wrote.

Look at your first point - "buy a game, go through a 45 min process, and play". 20 years ago you would have thought this was a joke. I have to perform a bunch of maintenance chores and wait a long period of time to play a game I BOUGHT? Any 1992 gamer would have laughed you out of the room. Yet it has become the norm. Apparently our time isn't worth as much as it used to be.

"agree to the EULA. Ok, why not?"
You may not realize it, but whenever you do something like this you're giving up your privacy and rights. Little by little they are chipping away. That EULA says you do not own the game. Your access to the game depends solely on them. They can change the game at any time. They can monitor your behavior and sell that information to anybody they want. You have become the product.

This is exactly what the industry is banking on - people conditioned to blindly accept any condition or restriction bestowed upon them. And the thing is, by the time we realized all we've lost in the name of "convenience", it'll be too late.

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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby David » April 9th, 2020, 11:40 am

Stalvern wrote:I'm not saying that it can't be used constructively. What I'm saying is that it, on balance, makes things worse for players overall. It is the nature of systems to be exploited. I don't think there's anything to be done about it, nor was there ever.

I'm biased in favor of online distribution because of my experiences with indie games, but it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to notice that, across the board, tech companies are trying to get people plugged into more and more services and trying to shift software to a service-based model in general. This isn't because it makes things better for anyone besides themselves.

For sure, gaming, movies, music, TV, you name it, are all moving to service based models because it’s clearly better for them and it’s possible now that the internet is widespread. Are they only doing it to benefit themselves? Sure, but I mean...that’s what businesses do. It’s also beneficial to make sure their customers are happy with their services, and if things were always in a state of getting worse for people eventually we’d all collectively get fed up. There are trade offs we’ve all made. Twenty years ago I couldn’t download a game the midnight of release and play it without leaving my house. In Civ 6 there was a battle royale mode added last year fir free that I wouldn’t have been able to get either at all, or without waiting to purchase an expansion. I wouldn’t have access to who knows how many games that wouldn’t exist without digital distribution. I know people here hate to hear it, but I’m increasing aware or how much waste I’m producing and for me, the less plastic And other crap I have around the better.

Clearly there are downsides. The idea of ownership is changing. We have less control of things we purchase, especially digital items. The internet, while available for a lot of people, is also not available to a lot of people as well, which will increasingly become difficult for people without it. I think patches are generally fine, but plug and play doesn’t really apply to consoles anymore.

I get it, but it just kills me when patches and online and the whole bit has been around since the 360/PS3 and it’s still “online gaming is annoying” “patches suck” “where are instruction manuals” “they just want us to give us all our information” :evil: ! It’s been fifteen years of complaining about the same thing, and yet the industry keeps moving forward. Why not save the complaints to help shape the industry as it moves forward, instead of complaining about something it will never be again?

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Stalvern
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby Stalvern » April 9th, 2020, 11:53 am

David wrote:Clearly there are downsides. The idea of ownership is changing.

No. It is being changed, deliberately and systematically.

David wrote:the industry keeps moving forward. Why not save the complaints to help shape the industry as it moves forward,

This is hilariously loaded language. The consolidation of power is not progress by any sane standard.

David
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby David » April 9th, 2020, 12:05 pm

I mean, if you want to complaint for another fifteen years about how the internet is changing gaming, go for it. Or just opt out. It’s not perfect but I’m fine with the industry now, and I’m sure it’ll be fine in twenty years.

bluenote
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Re: You Have to Go Online

Postby bluenote » April 9th, 2020, 12:20 pm

VideoGameCritic wrote:bluenote - Is your message serious? Look at what you wrote.

Look at your first point - "buy a game, go through a 45 min process, and play". 20 years ago you would have thought this was a joke. I have to perform a bunch of maintenance chores and wait a long period of time to play a game I BOUGHT? Any 1992 gamer would have laughed you out of the room. Yet it has become the norm. Apparently our time isn't worth as much as it used to be.

"agree to the EULA. Ok, why not?"
You may not realize it, but whenever you do something like this you're giving up your privacy and rights. Little by little they are chipping away. That EULA says you do not own the game. Your access to the game depends solely on them. They can change the game at any time. They can monitor your behavior and sell that information to anybody they want. You have become the product.

This is exactly what the industry is banking on - people conditioned to blindly accept any condition or restriction bestowed upon them. And the thing is, by the time we realized all we've lost in the name of "convenience", it'll be too late.


What chores?? A 45 min install? I buy a new Switch game, put it in, and go upstairs and cook dinner, play with the kids, whatever while it installs. That's it. What's the big deal? I never have to do that again for that game (I guess for the odd update, which doesn't take long at all). I may be ignrorant though, i don't have a Ps4, only a switch.

20 years ago I bought Windows 98, how long was that install? Hours. Did people expect that to install immediately because "they bought it"?

As far as EULA's, c'mon, when did that ever affect anyone?? You said that the eula says you do not own the game. Okay, what does that mean and how does that effect you?? I have Mario Oddysey for example. EULA says I don't own it. Oky, so what? I still have the game on my shelf and can play it anytime I want. What changes exactly?

What rights and privacy am I giving away? I'm installing a game, using the updates and playing offline (as I stated in my initial post).

"they can change the game anytime they want". Okay. This means fixing bugs. Perfect! That's what I want. Are they changing the game itself, ie, making a boss harder, changing enemies, etc? I don't think so. As far as I know, they just fix some bugs and add levels (if you want).

I don't know, it's no big deal for me. I'm not that paranoid about online stuff. I'm also just giving a different viewpoint. As I said initially, I can possibly learn something from other views, so perhaps I may be ignorant on some of this stuff as well. :)


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