Xbox Live! Arcade Vs. Virtual Console

[feilong801]

This is going to be one of the hottest debates of this generation.

 

Which retro gaming service is better? Microsoft's Live Arcade or Nintendo's Virtual Console?

 

Some of you might think it is the Live Arcade, no question. And I couldn't blame you for thinking that, with the added extras like leaderboards and so forth.

 

However! Here is how I see it:

 

Xbox Live Arcade Pros

 

-Added features such as leaderboards, online co-op, and online competitive play.

-Focuses mostly on classic coin-op hits.

-Updates graphics and sound.

-Games are slightly cheaper overall than on VC.

-A growing stable of terrific original titles, including the smash hit Geometry Wars.

 

Xbox Live Arcade Cons

 

-Surprisingly, sometimes "inferior" console games are better than their hit arcade counterparts. Contra is a great example. NES Contra totally kicks the arcade Contra's butt. It's a more balanced game.

-Sometimes, the updates don't work. Check out the screenies for Double Dragon, coming out soon. The updated graphics look like crap.

-As m0zart has stated in other threads, the emulation can be shoddy. My friend, a world class Pac-Man player (currently #1 on the XBLA leaderboards, btw), has told me the only time he ever loses a life is when the control glitches.

-Original isn't always good. Some of the original games smack of cheeseball PC casual games, such as Outpost Kaloki X (snore) and the various puzzle games.

-Finally, yes, you do have to pay for the service. The retro games are generally cheaper, but not by much.

 

Virtual Console Pros

 

-Obviously, the NES, SNES, TG16, Genesis, and N64 represent a massive amount of classic gaming. There isn't a single one of us in the VGC community that isn't going to be well represented at some point. Even Shawn .

-Automatic Save States: Not quite the same as those cheat save state options found on PC emulators, this most excellent feature allows the gamer to make little bits of progress in a game, and come back to it later. This is a great idea, because, let's face it, who wants to write down long passwords or play a game for 4 hours just because we can't save?

-We get the straight up dope. No messing around. So far, Nintendo's policy has been to give us straight up emulations with no added sugar or artificial flavors. And I like it. If I wanted updated graphics on Super Mario Bros, I'll just play Super Mario World. That said, the small changes that result from running these games on better hardware and in 480p are generally positive: SNES games in particular look incredible in 480p.

-The service is totally free, other than the cost of the games themselves.

 

Virtual Console Cons:

-Sure, yeah, I like straight conversions, but certain games are just b e g g i n g for online multiplayer, like Mario Kart 64. I understand why they wouldn't do it (it would hurt sales for Mario Kart DS and Diddy Kong racing), but it would still be nice.

-N64 games seem to be suffering from emulation issues. The 2D sprites in Mario Kart look absolutely bizarre when on a 480p TV. Also, you can't save like you normally would in MK64, because they didn't alter the game to look for the Wii's internal memory instead of the controller's memory pack. These sort of issues are no doubt why the big name N64 titles are going to take some time to be released. I might as well track down the Gamecube Ocarina of Time. *sigh*

-Some have the opinion that the games are overpriced. I don't, myself. The are actually cheaper in almost every case than what you'd find on eBay.

-Original content is still far away at this point, and it'll probably launch in a totally new channel anyway.

 

So, what is my verdict? A total wash. I really like both systems. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and would have to declare it a tie. A great example of this: I would much, much rather play Contra III on the VC than Contra on the XBLA, but I would much rather play Street Fighter II on the XBLA than the SNES version on VC.

 

-Rob

[Leo Ames]

"Sure, yeah, I like straight conversions, but certain games are just b e g g i n g for online multiplayer, like Mario Kart 64. I understand why they wouldn't do it (it would hurt sales for Mario Kart DS and Diddy Kong racing), but it would still be nice."

 

The Virtual Console titles are all emulated, that is why there is no online play. Doing online play would involve completely rewriting and porting the titles over, resulting in just a handful of releases per year at higher prices. Nintendo could get around it like some PC emulators do, but it would result in noticeable controller lag for the player connecting to the host. Look at how quick companies like Namco are putting out rewritten versions of their simple early classics, we'd be lucky to get two games of the level of Mario Kart 64 a year.

 

"As m0zart has stated in other threads, the emulation can be shoddy. My friend, a world class Pac-Man player (currently #1 on the XBLA leaderboards, btw), has told me the only time he ever loses a life is when the control glitches. "

 

The emulation isn't shoddy since no titles on XBLA are emulated. They have been completely rewritten and ported over, it is not the original code running through a program to make the 360 behave like the original arcade hardware. The ports are sometimes pretty poor however.

 

"N64 games seem to be suffering from emulation issues. The 2D sprites in Mario Kart look absolutely bizarre when on a 480p TV. Also, you can't save like you normally would in MK64, because they didn't alter the game to look for the Wii's internal memory instead of the controller's memory pack. These sort of issues are no doubt why the big name N64 titles are going to take some time to be released. I might as well track down the Gamecube Ocarina of Time. *sigh* "

 

Sigh? It's likely the same emulator in use on the Zelda disc on the GameCube as on the Wii Virtual Console service. So unless you really want to use your Wii classic controller, you might as well buy the Zelda disc since the VC versions won't offer anything different from what is already available. Likely the increased clarity 480p provides is why you're noticing just how poor looking the karts look in MK64. You really start to notice flaws with N64 games when you run them under emulators instead of at 480i over composite cables.

 

What do you mean you can't save like you normally would? Does the game not save your lap times and trophys automatically after each race? It's supposed to, you're not limited to using the Wii save state when you exit the game.

 

[Atarifever1]

I think the VC is an incredible service, and when Shawn and Bluemonkey chime in about how useless it is in a few minutes, I will disagree wholeheartedly.  However. I think Live Arcade seems like the better of the 2.  Live Arcade is something that people only dreamed about in 1982.   By itself, it could pretty much sell me a console.

[feilong801]

I suppose I was using a broad definition of emulation, Leo. I really meant anything not on the original source, whether it is a port or an actual emulation of the original hardware is not a big deal to me.

 

Mario64 on the VC looks for and doesn't find the memory card thingie that you originally stuck in the back of the N64 controller. That's been the gripe on the street. I'll have to check that out myself today. I should have mentioned that in the writeup, but I was just trying to point out that the VC will have its issues with the emulations just like Live! has with its ports.

 

You know, online things are sort of funny with me. It's one of those things that, when you don't have it, you lust after it big time, but then once you get it, you are sorta lukewarm to it. I've had many enjoyable Halo 2, Madden, Mario Kart, and Gears of War (online co-op) sessions, but after experiencing online play, I can tell anyone: It isn't anything remotely close to having real humans at your house. So it just doesn't rate highly to me as a feature as it once did.

 

Of course, I still think we are better off for having the option.

 

-Rob

 

-Rob

[m0zart1]

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]The Virtual Console titles are all emulated, that is why there is no online play. Doing online play would involve completely rewriting and porting the titles over, resulting in just a handful of releases per year at higher prices. Nintendo could get around it like some PC emulators do, but it would result in noticeable controller lag for the player connecting to the host. Look at how quick companies like Namco are putting out rewritten versions of their simple early classics, we'd be lucky to get two games of the level of Mario Kart 64 a year.[/QUOTE]

They are emulated, but they aren't just direct ROMs.  Most of the ROMs, at least for the Nintendo games, have been rebuilt.  This allows some flexibility when it is reasonably necessary to change things around.  This can be something as simple as copyright dates, or something more complex.

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]The emulation isn't shoddy since no titles on XBLA are emulated. They have been completely rewritten and ported over, it is not the original code running through a program to make the 360 behave like the original arcade hardware. The ports are sometimes pretty poor however.[/QUOTE]

 

That is correct, on all counts.

 

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]Sigh? It's likely the same emulator in use on the Zelda disc on the GameCube as on the Wii Virtual Console service. So unless you really want to use your Wii classic controller, you might as well buy the Zelda disc since the VC versions won't offer anything different from what is already available. Likely the increased clarity 480p provides is why you're noticing just how poor looking the karts look in MK64. You really start to notice flaws with N64 games when you run them under emulators instead of at 480i over composite cables. [/QUOTE]

 

Nah, it's not the same emulator.  It's a later version of the emulator, which has been optimized for the classic controller, but also fixed to be able to use any controller.  The ROMs again are rebuilt, so additional data can be included for the emulator if need be, such as mapping for other controllers besides the classic controller.

 

BTW, I don't know what this talk about the N64's clarity on the VC is about.  Only two games have been downloadable so far, and I can honestly say that both of them are far more crisp and clear than they were on the N64.  It's as if the games were not only made for the expansion pack, but an even larger expansion pak and a better processor.  Unlike the NES and SNES emulators, where framerate and slow downs are part of the emulation (and emulated perfectly I might add), the N64 emulation seems not to suffer from the same kind of framerate drops I saw when playing these same two games on an actual N64.

 

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]What do you mean you can't save like you normally would? Does the game not save your lap times and trophys automatically after each race? It's supposed to, you're not limited to using the Wii save state when you exit the game.[/QUOTE]

 

It doesn't save ghost data for your races, which means you can no longer race against ghost players.  That's really all it means if I understand correctly.  Scores, lap times, trophies, etc. are all saved, I am pretty sure.  I'll have to check to make 100% sure of course, but so far I've played it three times without a save state and had no issues.

 

I actually expect this sort of thing to be fixed eventually.  Unlike the GC discs, the emulators on the Wii are part of the console itself.  You don't download a different emulator with each ROM.  As such, they can (and likely will) be updated when problems arise in existing ROMs.  I expect, for instance, that there will eventually be an update for the European console allowing the NES, SNES, and Genesis games to run in their normal framerates.

[ActRaiser1]

I've actually been more impressed by the News Service on the Wii than the Virtual Console.  Maybe, when we start getting those rare never been released stateside games on the Virtual Console I'll be more inclined to fork over some additional money.  For me Geometry Wars ranks better than what's out on the console (I'm sure to get flamed on this one).  I own pretty much all the other games on the console so there's little incentive to pick stuff up except for the lazy factor, which I'm leaning towards.

[feilong801]

As to the N64 games on the VC: It's just a mild gripe, and not anything that's going to stop me from enjoying N64 games are more come out, but the 2D sprites in Mario Kart look kinda bizarre. Not the game's fault really, but it is just a little aspect of the game that hasn't aged well.

 

-Rob

[bluemonkey1]

I personally love the demo of Outpost Kaloki X.  You don't like puzzle games that's fine but there are a lot of us out there who are really into them.  The emulation isn't shoddy on XBLA because the games aren't emulated.  Also having played on an original Pac-man cabinet a couple of weeks ago I would hardly call an extremely occasional control issue which I personaly have never seen as "shoddy."  Please give some examples of all these "shoddy" conversions.

 

"Obviously, the NES, SNES, TG16, Genesis, and N64 represent a massive amount of classic gaming. There isn't a single one of us in the VGC community that isn't going to be well represented at some point. Even Shawn ." <-- Except that the VC will not have all the games from these systems, merely a subset so that's not quite a fair statement to make.

 

"We get the straight up dope" <-- How is this a plus point or a negative point?  Personally I like having extras in my remakes of old games.  The fact that all the PC emulators let you play the classic games over the net and yet the VC doesn't is pretty much a missed opportunity.

 

"Finally, yes, you do have to pay for the service." "The service is totally free" <-- I don't know what you mean here.  You don't need an XBox Live subscription to get XBLA games.  So both systems work the same.  Free access to games but you pay for what you buy.

 

Personally I don't really care much about the retro remakes on XBLA.  I love it for all the original games.  I wonder if Treasure's upcoming shooter will finally make the VGC hook his machine up.

[feilong801]

I played Outpost Kaloki's demo, liked it, bought it. Then got bored quickly. Hey, it happens.

 

I tried to explain this in an earlier reply, so I'll say it again. I'm getting a little bit hammered on semantics: I should have said something other than emulated in the OP, since there is a difference between emulation and porting.

 

 

[Leo Ames]

"They are emulated, but they aren't just direct ROMs.  Most of the ROMs, at least for the Nintendo games, have been rebuilt.  This allows some flexibility when it is reasonably necessary to change things around.  This can be something as simple as copyright dates, or something more complex."

 

I think that's a stretch calling them rebuilt, they're simple things any hacker can do. Even though the Legend of Zelda for the NES has a added copyright date and some changes in spelling and such, its still the same code running the game, just with a few character changes. No different really than hacking a 2600 game to make a simple change like giving Asteroids a vector look.

 

"BTW, I don't know what this talk about the N64's clarity on the VC is about"

 

While i think his complaints about the character and kart sprites is odd since they're not any different appearance wise, playing a N64 game in higher resolutions in emulators makes the game sharper, but it also enhances flaws that might've gone unoticed in the past when people were playing them at lower resolutions with rf or composite output on the 64. Put them at 480p using component and while it improves the appearance, it also magnifys the flaws that were more hidden in the past. I hope that makes a little sense.

 

"It doesn't save ghost data for your races, which means you can no longer race against ghost players"

 

That's a big loss, you could fit what? 1 or 2 ghost time trials into a N64 memory card? I'm not sure I ever even tried it since it would've meant dedicating a card to MK64 basically.

 

"For me Geometry Wars ranks better than what's out on the console (I'm sure to get flamed on this one)."

 

If you mean Geometry Wars is a better game than games like Sonic the Hedgehog and Link to the Past, I'd question your sanity. You sure you picked the right word in ranked? I could see argueing that you prefer XBLA for the original content since you've already played the VC games, so the new games appeal to you more, but calling them better seems strange. I don't think you'd find too much support for that.

 

"Not the game's fault really, but it is just a little aspect of the game that hasn't aged well."

 

Which is it then? First you make it sound like a emulator issue not displaying things properly, and now you're basically saying you just don't like their design? I don't see anything wrong with them, myself.

 

"The fact that all the PC emulators let you play the classic games over the net and yet the VC doesn't is pretty much a missed opportunity."

 

Nintendo doesn't do things halfway, implimenting a crippled online multiplayer system that makes the players controllers cords potentially several thousand miles in length unless you're the host is nothing too spectacular. It's very hard to enjoy anything played online with ZSNES and Nesticle unless its something like Monopoly or Clue where the noticeable lag in controls for player 2 doesn't hurt the experience. And that's the only way to do it unless you completely rewrite the games from the ground up.