The Video Game Critic

RPGs are time consuming to give a review on, since a great deal of the 'meat' of the game takes time to delve into, not to mention the story that is also critical to the game's success (or failure).

Being a huge RPG fan from way back when (PC/text driven sagas), the genre is a tough one that does not automatically appeal to the general mob of gamers, unlike sports related games.  They typically can take up to 5 hours at the least to get good and comfortable about the feel of the game (and sometimes longer - see Suikoden V for the PS2). 

Some suggested action/RPGs that might not take as long (game play time) for the VGC to be able to give an accurate review:

Xbox 360 --> Oblivion
Xbox --> Fable
PS2 --> Shadow Hearts: Covenant or Dragon's Quest VIII
PSX --> Final Fantasy VII or Chrono Cross

The previous listed games are not necessarily the best (though are all great), and are from the newer systems, but can be, IMHO, easily reviewed without putting one's marriage at jeopardy    I agree - I would love to read Dave's take on classic RPGs (my favorite series being Suikoden), but those do take some time to delve into.

Maybe a good idea would to have a poll put up listing the top RPG games for each system and then target the winner as a game to target to review down the road.  Just a thought.

personal opinion, so don't flame me.

If the critic tries KOTOR again, I bet he remembers why he got bored. I think the game starts slow, and on the xbox the load times are annoying. The game gets better as you go on, but the reality is KOTOR is not groundbreaking or revolutionary, and while well-done overall is a bit overrated....

[QUOTE=jrallen81]personal opinion, so don't flame me.

If the critic tries KOTOR again, I bet he remembers why he got bored. I think the game starts slow, and on the xbox the load times are annoying. The game gets better as you go on, but the reality is KOTOR is not groundbreaking or revolutionary, and while well-done overall is a bit overrated....[/QUOTE]

I won't flame you, but I definitely disagree.  KOTOR is the one of the few video game RPGs that ever kept my interest.  It was just -- revolutionary to me.

One thing I do agree with is the getting bored at first part.  When I first bought KOTOR at launch, I played it for an hour, and then decided it was too boring and put it away.  A year later I picked it back up and started playing again, and once I got past the first hour, the game really kicked into high gear (as RPGs go anyway).  I couldn't put it down for months.

[QUOTE=m0zart]I won't flame you, but I definitely disagree.  KOTOR is the one of the few video game RPGs that ever kept my interest.  It was just -- revolutionary to me.

One thing I do agree with is the getting bored at first part.  When I first bought KOTOR at launch, I played it for an hour, and then decided it was too boring and put it away.  A year later I picked it back up and started playing again, and once I got past the first hour, the game really kicked into high gear (as RPGs go anyway).  I couldn't put it down for months.
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't really call the game revolutionary.  It was basically a PC RPG shoehorned into a console game.  If the game didn't have the Star Wars license to draw from I don't think it would have done so well.  Its a good game, but as far as rpgs go its nothing special.  As a Star Wars game though...it was great. 

Mozart, you are like the 10th person I've talked to that has stopped playing that game for a lengthy amount of time only to pick it up later and fall in love with it.  That is certainly a strange.  It does take a while to get going though...

[QUOTE=JustLikeHeaven]I wouldn't really call the game revolutionary.  It was basically a PC RPG shoehorned into a console game.  If the game didn't have the Star Wars license to draw from I don't think it would have done so well.  Its a good game, but as far as rpgs go its nothing special.  As a Star Wars game though...it was great.[/QUOTE]

Well that might be the reason for the difference of perspective.  You are talking to someone who loves long games, but just for some reason cannot get into video game RPGs.

I played D&D for years out of my life as a kid with my friends, but the video game counterpart for this just doesn't interest me at all.  I've tried and tried.  So far the only two video game RPGs that I was able to proceed through were KOTOR and FFIII on the DS, and frankly the latter game is much more of me just being determined to say that I played a Final Fantasy game all the way through.  KOTOR on the other hand was pure enjoyment.

There were two basic things that separated it from other RPGs I've attempted to play.  The first is in the gameplay department.  I HATE turn-based combat. I really really do.  The only time it has ever worked for me is in strategy games.  For some reason, in those games, I am not as put off by it.  But in these massive RPGs, it really is a big turn-off.  KOTOR still had turn-based combat, but they had done it in such a way that it was automatic when it really needed to be.  I could go around and control whichever character I wanted to directly, while just leaving a queue of orders to repeat continually for the others.  Or I could just leave the default queue of orders from last time.  Ultimately, my favorite thing to do was just that -- let everyone do their own thing automatically, while I controlled one character, usually the main character.  And since there was none of that annoying "choose your action" crap, I was able to just quickly select something from the menu of the character I was controlling and let it go before he actually had his turn.  Since things were moving rather quickly, if I needed more time I could pause the action and then select.  You have to understand that, from the perpsective of someone who thinks that RPGs primarily get boring BECAUSE of the combat, it is nice to have turn-based combat that is based on user-driven pauses, instead of automatic pauses in which you play the character like he's imaginary on a board game.

The second thing that separated it the story.  The crazy Japanese over-dramatic storyline wasn't present.  It was definitely drama, but it was well-written drama from a Western perspective.  It also had something going for it in the sense that it was a mirror of the original Star Wars trilogy storyline, only with different literary archetypes in the same mold.  It had a metallic voiced super villain in the same order as Darth Vader. It had an army of servants in a similar vein as the Storm Troopers.  It had its own "death star" per se.  It had its own Wookie on board.  It spanned many environments in the Star Wars universe.  It even had its own "Luke I am your Father" identity crisis.  To speak to the latter one, I am usually very good at picking out surprise endings before they happen.  But I was definitely oblivious to that one until only about 30 minutes before it occured.  It was the interrogation by Saul that gave me enough clues finally to realize the secret, but just having it hidden from me for that long was a pleasure.

[QUOTE=JustLikeHeaven]Mozart, you are like the 10th person I've talked to that has stopped playing that game for a lengthy amount of time only to pick it up later and fall in love with it.  That is certainly a strange.  It does take a while to get going though...[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of people who were never into RPGs could play and enjoy KOTOR.  At first many of them are put off because the gameplay automatically seems like it is going to be a mess in that first training scene aboard the Endar Spire.  Still, making it past that and getting about 45 minutes into Taris made many of us realize that we were definitely in for something good, and so we eventually stuck with it.

Of course I am not just projecting my experience on others here.  I have been told this by quite a few people who don't care for video game RPGs.

I completely get why people love that game...I did, but even in terms of faster paced RPGs there are better options out there. 

First and foremost is Jade Empire.  This game gets no love, while KOTOR get to bask in all its glory. J ade Empire quietly sits in KOTOR's shadow even though its the better game.  The setting was unique, the combat was taken even further and the graphics were some of the best seen on last gen consoles.  People who never play RPGs love KOTOR, but they passed up on the follow up Jade Empire.  I am beginning to wonder if the same thing will happen to Mass Effect.  If you have $20 lying around and you feel like enjoy 30 hours of RPG Bliss, pick up Jade Empire.  There really isn't anything like it besides KOTOR and I feel its the better of the two.


It may sound like I'm hating on KOTOR, but I'm not.  Its a terrific game in its own right and if you have any love for RPGs or Star Wars its a no-brainer. 

My vote is for Dragon Warrior on the NES.  I'm not an RPG player, but I love that game.  Probably the pacing of the battles that holds me.

Yeah, Dragon Warrior I is a classic. *Love* the music in that game.

Back to KOTOR, though:

Critic, you have to give that one another try. You are right: the first part of the game on Taris is slow, and almost turns one off from the game entirely.

But the game picks up considerably from there. Trust me on this.

Also, I take umbrage to two points raised in this thread (since things have gotten more and more testy around here, I should say, I take umbrage with a  on my face).

First, KOTOR is aided by the Star Wars license, but the secret to its success lay in the skillful BioWare writing. The license only gives a popular framework for an already skilled team to do its stuff. Rarely is game dialogue so well written. It's also one of the most well acted games, voice over wise, in the history of videogames (and they used *no* big names, other than pathetic political hack Ed "pompous windbag" Asner).

Second, I did run out and grab Jade Empire, and it's a great game, and also highly recommended! But it isn't better than KOTOR. The RPG gameplay was watered down for a console audience, and while still a great time (it has its own special strengths, to be sure: the combat system is very well done), I would not put it on par with KOTOR. It's close, and I can see how if you didn't like science fiction, you might give Jade Empire the edge.

Finally: m0zart, it's interesting that you, like me, like "real time with pause" combat. You might want to check out the RPG I'm doing the audio on over at www.planewakergames.com, as it uses that system (and is a game being made by BioWare modders).

-Rob

I agree completely with m0zart on KOTOR. The only RPGs I ever played through were Mario RPG and the GBA and DS Mario % Luigis (battle system had more involvement than other RPGs, even if it was turn based), FFX (like m0zart I mainly beat it to say I had played through a Final Fantasy game),  and KOTOR (I'm not going to count Zelda or Fable as RPGs).

KOTOR didn't let you personally control the fighting, but you could do a lot more than in other RPGs. Take for instance a part where three soldiers were attacking just my main character. Rather than fight all three at once, and either lose a lot of health or die, I lured one at a time into a different room and got three fair battles rather than one very uneven battle. You may not actually be mashing on the X button to hit a character, but it's a heck of a lot better than turn based battles. I also found the game boring at the beginning, but once you get a lightsaber it really takes off. Also, I'd like to mention that I'm not even a big fan of Star Wars, so I actually liked the game on its own merit.

I guess I felt that Jade Empire was the beter game simply because of its unique story and setting.  I think Sci-Fi has been done to death and Star Wars even moreso.  Granted KOTOR was able to take the license and really make it minty fresh. 

Plus for the people that don't normally like RPGs Jade Empire is much easier to get into.  Its very RPG-lite...in terms of items, and battles, but the story and dialouge is top notch.  It has some very memorable characters and villians and I really enjoyed talking to every NPC in the game.  Plus becoming a martial arts masters kicks all sorts of ass.  Its a very unique RPG and its a damn shame it was so widely overlooked by gamers.