The Video Game Critic

An ugly little secret that you don't hear much about in the TV industry is "input lag" associated with many HD (high def) TV sets.  It's actually a very serious and common problem, and if you do a few google searches, you'll find plenty of horror stories.  Apparently when you hook up an older console that's not the native resolution of the TV, the TV has to do some scaling, and the split second can ruin the control.

Yesterday I had my first encounter with lag when playing my new 42" Pioneer Plasma TV.  Since I had never had any issues with my 2-year-old 50" Pioneer, I never even considered there would be an issue.

However when I was playing my PS2, I noticed a serious lag, and it scared the crap out of me.  I checked the Internet, and was advised to modify my PS2 configuration to match the TV (widescreen, resolution).  That seemed to do the trick (whew!).  Then I checked my other systems.

I couldn't detect any lag with the systems hooked up via S-Video or composite/RCA, but my RF (coax) systems (Atari 2600/5200/7800, Intellivision Odyssey 2) exhibited noticeable lag.  This one was tougher to solve.  According to the Internet, I needed to process the image before it got to the TV to get it into a decent resolution.  The universal solution was to hook your coax system to an old VCR, and then have the VCR send an upconverted composite to the TV. 

First I tried an old VCR I had sitting in the garage.  It only gave me a slightly more responsive control, and the picture was very degraded.  Demoralized, I tried a fairly new VCR I had in my basement.  That worked MUCH better.  The lag was practically gone, and the picture looked clear.  Only with the super-sensitive paddle games (like Kaboom or Warlords) could you tell a difference, and even those were playable.

It looks like I got lucky, but I'd advise you all to do a lot of research before taking the plunge to HDTV.  Apparently Pioneer is one of the better brands, but it depends on the model as well.  Only upgrade to HD if you're really into the latest generation of game systems.  I'm definitely keeping my "normal" TV around, and will probably keep playing my old Atari games on that, since they look cleaner and less pixelated.

[QUOTE=The Video Game Critic]Only upgrade to HD if you're really into the latest generation of game systems.  I'm definitely keeping my "normal" TV around, and will probably keep playing my old Atari games on that, since they look cleaner and less pixelated.[/QUOTE]

The key measurement for response time when shopping for HDTV's is the refresh rate.  Most newer HDTV's on the market advertise an '8m' response time, which theoretically should do the trick.  My Olevia 747i advertises an 8m response/refresh and a 'Gaming mode' (most newer HDTV's offer this; do your two Pio plasmas have it?) that turns off most processing inside the TV to minimize lagging.  Some newer TV models (Sharp D92U for example) advertise a '6m' refresh rate.  Anything more than 12m-15m (which belongs to the generation of HDTV's from a year ago) and you're guaranteed major lag.  Here's an often-referred-to IGN article from last year that's dated (most of the TV models/brands they warn about have been discontinued and/or replaced with HDTV's that address the issue) but covers the basics of what you're talking about: [url]http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p1.html[/url].

Refresh rate and response lag aren't really related. If a tv has to scale something, it can introduce lag which can be pretty bad if the scaler isn't very good.

Refresh rate is mostly only really relevent if you're talking about blurring on a LCD screen.

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]Refresh rate and response lag aren't really related. If a tv has to scale something, it can introduce lag which can be pretty bad if the scaler isn't very good.

Refresh rate is mostly only really relevent if you're talking about blurring on a LCD screen.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.  The difference in milliseconds between a faster and slower refresh rate would not be noticeable enough to cause obvious lag, but processing and scaling that is done to make a picture that originally was meant to be viewed on under 480 lines of resolution will not only fill up half your screen or something weird like that.  Mitsubishi was the first brand that I know of that started building upscalers into their sets.  Before that they were available as $2000 add-ons, and it wasn't a problem to bypass it.   If you want a good RF demodulator for those old systems, get one from Petra or Parts Express that is the size of a deck of cards and works amazing.

HA! Sometimes, ya' know, it can be an advantage being poor...

Like the problems the original PS2 had. Noooo worry to me, I couldn't get one till recently and the slimline worked out all the bugs. Being an early adopter is NOT a good thing (Ok I blew it myself buying the first DS instead of waiting for the DSLITE. I hope you don't have to buy a whole new set, critic!)

[QUOTE=Paul Campbell][QUOTE=Leo Ames]Refresh rate and response lag aren't really related. If a tv has to scale something, it can introduce lag which can be pretty bad if the scaler isn't very good.

Refresh rate is mostly only really relevent if you're talking about blurring on a LCD screen.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.  The difference in milliseconds between a faster and slower refresh rate would not be noticeable enough to cause obvious lag, but processing and scaling that is done to make a picture that originally was meant to be viewed on under 480 lines of resolution will not only fill up half your screen or something weird like that.  Mitsubishi was the first brand that I know of that started building upscalers into their sets.  Before that they were available as $2000 add-ons, and it wasn't a problem to bypass it.   If you want a good RF demodulator for those old systems, get one from Petra or Parts Express that is the size of a deck of cards and works amazing.
[/QUOTE]

Paul,
I'm all over the demodulator idea, but I couldn't find it on either one of the sites you mentioned.  If you could send me a link I'd be most grateful!!
Dave

Screw HD! Last year I bought a new 27" CRT Toshiba TV. Its solid, DVD quality is superb and there's far less worry about image burning, no refresh issues or issues with older consoles. The big issue about PS3, XBOX 360 is this is really the first time where consoles felt like computer games where you have to upgrade your machine to match the game. Here you have to upgrade to HD, 5.1 sound, etc. PS2 games will always look good and be extremely fun to me as will my n64, genesis, snes, nes so until HD is standard, forget about it for me. (Suppose that attitude would change should I inherit an ample cash loaf though)

[QUOTE=The Video Game Critic][QUOTE=Paul Campbell][QUOTE=Leo Ames]Refresh rate and response lag aren't really related. If a tv has to scale something, it can introduce lag which can be pretty bad if the scaler isn't very good.

Refresh rate is mostly only really relevent if you're talking about blurring on a LCD screen.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.  The difference in milliseconds between a faster and slower refresh rate would not be noticeable enough to cause obvious lag, but processing and scaling that is done to make a picture that originally was meant to be viewed on under 480 lines of resolution will not only fill up half your screen or something weird like that.  Mitsubishi was the first brand that I know of that started building upscalers into their sets.  Before that they were available as $2000 add-ons, and it wasn't a problem to bypass it.   If you want a good RF demodulator for those old systems, get one from Petra or Parts Express that is the size of a deck of cards and works amazing.
[/QUOTE]

Paul,
I'm all over the demodulator idea, but I couldn't find it on either one of the sites you mentioned.  If you could send me a link I'd be most grateful!!
Dave
[/QUOTE]

You're right.  It's been a while since I was in need of one of those so I am a bit behind.  All those places have left is modulators.  There is this new one on Ebay 
 which is the only one I can find right now.  I'll keep looking.  That one, the DM-3 is one I have used before and it works great.  The outboard RF demodulators tend to work better then ones built into anything but the absolute best VCR's, probably due to a lack of interfering components of the VCR, and just trying to keep costs down.  Radio Shack might have something good available, too.

By the way, if you look around for one of these, you want to avoid the ones that were originally made to get Dolby Digital (called AC-3 at the time) surround sound out of Laser Disk players.  These are also called RF Demodulators, but they will only have a single digital output jack, instead of the audio and video jacks.  They also don't have the twist-on type RF connector, so they are easy to spot.