The Video Game Critic

[QUOTE=Steerforth] 4.Isn't one purpose of government to decide what they let influence their society [/QUOTE]Absolutely, unequivocably not. Any Government that tries to influence what I view is not a good one. (I should point out that this is not actually the Government, much as I hate it, banning this game but rather an independent body, which is not any better).

Anyway the Government absolutely must not decide what will influence us. I get quite enough politics elsewhere and do not care to discuss it here, but I should point this out to you. A fair part of my family came from South Africa and Rhodesia, they were European settlers, but they certainly felt the force of censorship their as the Governments there restricted anything they did not want their citizens to see. That was one of their reasons for coming here. Similarly I have friends from Spain and the older ones remember when they were banned from reading all sorts of books or seeing films or even listening to Music when the fascists were in power there. And of course on the other side of the spectrum, we see what happened in the Soviet Union and its sattelites when the Governments there chose to rstrict what their people would be influenced by.

This case is far from as bad as those cases, but be aware of the kind of thing you advocate when you say the government should be allowed to choose what we read or watch and play. I hardly find the current political set up satisfactory, but I do consider myself lucky that I live in a country where the Government )usually) doesn't interfere like this.

On another note, a few months ago, the same hypocrites in the press who no doubt influenced this decision were gleefully showing uncut footage of Saddam Hussein's execution. Surely the actual execution of a man, however despicable is worse than a video game? Anyway I hope this is the last I have to go into politics here. Video Games are a great escape, not something to have to remind me of all the bad in the world

Wow! Controversy! Anger! Passioned debate! Long posts from m0zart !

What idiot started this thread?


Oh yeah.....

@ Steerforth

Man, I really sympathize with your emotions here, I really, really do. You haven't said it yourself clearly (at least in any posts that I can recall), but you seem to be coming at this from a Christian perspective. If so, trust me then, I especially sympathize with you, as a Christian myself.

But unfortunately, as hard as it is, I don't think I can advocate censorship for Manhunt 2. I have to have the hope that my ideals will have a shot in the free marketplace of ideas. I have to hope that I can be persuasive enough that people, as individuals, can at the very least keep something like Manhunt far, far away from kids. If they are secular people, I then would hope to argue (as I will later in this post, at least a little bit) in secular terms as to why this game shouldn't be supported with our dollars. If they are people of faith, especially if it is a similar or same faith as mine, I would hope to argue on those terms as well (won't do that here, though it should seem somewhat obvious why using motion controls to simulate ghastly murder on our fellow man would be frowned upon by God!)

I'm not a libertarian on every issue, understand (at least insofar as what most libertarians tend to advocate in terms of law). But I think in terms of creative expression, it is extremely hard to not be libertarian. It's all subjective and therefore hard to make good law. Remember the phrase "tough cases make for bad law?"
Manhunt 2 is your classic "tough case."

This approach, while leading to things that are quite unfortunate (in my view) such as Manhunt 2, is in my view the best solution. It's imperfect, but it is probably the least imperfect.

Anyway, the next thing I'd like to look at is the artistic value of Manhunt. Now, I respect that some think of it as an artistic expression, but I've been highly suspicious of Rockstar Games in general when it comes to this. From the articles I've read about them, they seem to be founded on the idea of being controversial for the sake of it, a sort of anarchistic bravado if you will. They may think they are being artistic, but I sense something in them that I sense in much of modern art, to the music I witnessed at the university (written by the other composers there) to the visual art I saw coming out of the art studios: The rebellious youth thumbing their nose at society. While it can sometimes create some good, I think it is overdone as a motivating force behind creativity today.

So I see its value, in most cases, as merely taking part in the grand "middle finger" they wish to extend at the expense of everybody else. Hey, if you like that, I guess that's nice for you. But I don't, and for that reason I refuse to allow any dollar I earn to go to Rockstar Games, even for Table Tennis.



-Rob

Here are two more interesting links...

Manhunt 2 rated Adults Only...

http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/manhunt-2-rated-adults-only-270337.php


Rockstars' reaction...

http://kotaku.com/gaming/original/rockstar-responds-to-manhunt-rating-270371.php

[QUOTE=Leo Ames]

I have no problems with this game being banned. I'd welcome it based off previews I've read of it.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, the game is sick and sadistic. I read the reviews, and I agree on that. Nonetheless, since it is a game, no one was harmed because of it. It is entirely fictional, and the amount of gore makes it practically cartoonish.

Also, why would you care if other people bought it? You don't ever have to play it, or look at it. How would the mere fact that it exists affect you in any way at all?

Using that logic, there's hardly anything that we should care about in this world.

Anyways, that's my opinion on the title.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Oh, well, some things are worse than censorship, like this game for instance. At least the UK has the guts to set a standard of decency for their country, and ban a game that has no redeeming social value.

[/QUOTE]

Amen to that.  Unfortunately our country is so full of Lib... I mean people... that are more concerned about political correctness and not hurting anyone's feelings that we can't make uniform decisions to ban the worst stuff in this country anymore.  Somebody would come out and say "Hey, it's art!  It's free speech!!", at which point someone else would say, well, we can't ban it now, because that would go against that person's viewpoint.

Just a question for the people who support this game, some say on general principal, some because they think it is a valid art form :

1. Do you believe any game can go to far to warrant bans and censorship? If so, what would it take?

No, on people's rights, I am a strict libertarian.   I do not like the government telling people what they can do in their own home.   I don't even believe child rape simulators or holocaust simulators should should be outlawed.  I know this may sound extreme, but that is currently the law in America where "virtual child porn" is legal.  http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/16/scotus.virtual.child.porn/ I believe in giving the government as little power as possible in restricting the flow of information.   Again I said the only thing a government should restrict are direct threats and child porn which harmed actual children.  

2. There was a JFK assination simulator made a while back, do you support that?

Yes, I believe it should be legal to own.   And infact a lot of its controversy was overblown.   The game had a legitimate purpose.   It was meant to a perfect simulation of the execution and showcase that the conspiracy theories are bogus.   JFK was killed 44 years ago.  I think the controversy is over.

3. Do you ever wonder if demanding nothing from your fellow man in terms of their personal conduct is a sign of fear or weakness on your part, or are you just paranoid that someone would demand it from you?

Yes, Im paranoid that someone would demand something from me, but I don't see that as a weakness.   I call that universal freedom.  I don't demand nothing from anything, as long as they don't violate my freedom.

4.Isn't one purpose of government to decide what they let influence their society, and a vital part of maintaining law and order? I mean, if you are so in love with violence and desire an impotent central government, would not Iraq look like a paradise to you? If the majority of society deems this game worthless, as in the UK, who are you as an individual to place you own self serving wants in front of the good of your country? We're talking rule of law here, people, it sometimes involves sacrifice. It seems to me this should be a very easy sacrifice to make!

No, it is not the role of government to control society.  instead, society should keep government in its place.   The only thing government should stop is real violence, and not fictional violence like Manhunt.  Because whats next, coming after the Godfather?

5. Is this game really about "art", or is it as I believe, a cheap, cynical attempt at making the most violent game out there for its own sake, to atttract attention and invariably good reviews because this is the sort of content the videogame culture revels in? Plus it becaomes irresistable to rebelious youth. Honestly, what would GTA sales look like without under 18 sales? I  mean, come on. It is quite possible there is solid gameplay underneathe it all, but when you marry it so completely to casual sadism, it loses its worth to all possible players.

Whether it is art or not, really doesn't matter.  I don't think a government censor committee should decide either.  and I realise your going for the "protect the children" route, and thats how censorship always starts.     I think its a fun game period and the government shouldn't touch it.


But I do believe this, and I put it into words as best as I could. I get a kick out of people who love to knock down Christianity and stand on the failures of the church as a reflection of the Faith as a whole. Please be patient. We are starting to see the seeds of the secular religion of moral relativity growing stronger, and you have not seen anything yet.

Please don't blame this on secularism.   There was plenty of violence in the religious eras, infact the Bible is plenty violent.   and there is plenty of violence, and I dont see what secularism has anything to do with it.  In fact, I think society is less violent as a whole now.



I can't believe all the people here want Manhunt 2 banned.  Well Ill tell you what.  When it comes out I'll review it and let you know what you're missing.