Well, I'll say one thing for Manhunt, it gave us the best thread I have read on this board. I do enjoy reading peoples responses, of course none of us have moved from our original opinions, lol.
Also somewhat amused by all the libertarian viewpoints here. I have nothing against liberterians, but man, I never expected to meet so many in one place!
That being said, Manhunt supporters, you have your heads buried in the sand. I know you think you are high-minded, but eventually you should realize what a tiny minority you are to larger society. While you might not feel that makes you wrong, (and it doesn't neccesarily), you still have to realize that society IS bigger than the individual and individual rights. Freedom is completely worthless without responsibilty and sacrifice.
And we can and do decide what qualifies as art and freedom of speech. All the time, every day. Can I spit in your face and call it art? Can I walk behind your wife and kids at the mall and speak crude, evil suggestive things to them, as a demonstration of my own personal freedom? Can I piss in a glass jar and force the Museum of Modern Art to display it? (Though the probably would!) Of course not, because we cannot let personal acts of depravity trump the deceny and worth of the human being.
Mozart - Banning this game is a long way from the Holocaust, brother. Get a grip. The bold segments of this post are for you, lol.
Edward - Just because 40 years pass, doesn't make the assasination of anyone any less contriversial. Again, this is about the respect of human life. Why can't you bring yourself to defend that?
a - The dumbest thing ever posted on this board? Well, then, I have done well to distinguish myself!
I brought up Christianity because it is the base of all morality in this world, and unarguably the foundation of our government and constitution, like it or not. I know not everyone believes, of course, and I will not use this board to try to convert anyone. But I am puzzled on how a counter system of moral relativity can impose a standard of basic human conduct and deceny toward one another without demanding anyone look past their own selfish, immediate, and in this case, base, desires. And the responses on this board have done nothing to clarify that to me.
Thanks Rob, for making this thread. Maybe I can at least win you over to the right side!
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
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KanYozakura
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Paul Campbell]Amen to that. Unfortunately our country is so full of Lib... I mean people... that are more concerned about political correctness and not hurting anyone's feelings that we can't make uniform decisions to ban the worst stuff in this country anymore. Somebody would come out and say "Hey, it's art! It's free speech!!", at which point someone else would say, well, we can't ban it now, because that would go against that person's viewpoint.
[/QUOTE]
It's not a matter of hurt feelings, it's a matter of constitutional law. The whole point of free speech laws is to prevent the exact situation you are describing: the many holding down the ideas of the few. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. Just don't prevent me from buying it because you think it's icky.
[/QUOTE]
It's not a matter of hurt feelings, it's a matter of constitutional law. The whole point of free speech laws is to prevent the exact situation you are describing: the many holding down the ideas of the few. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. Just don't prevent me from buying it because you think it's icky.
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feilong801
- Posts: 2173
- Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Paul Campbell][QUOTE=Steerforth]Oh, well, some things are worse than censorship, like this game for instance. At least the UK has the guts to set a standard of decency for their country, and ban a game that has no redeeming social value.
[/QUOTE]
Amen to that. Unfortunately our country is so full of Lib... I mean people... that are more concerned about political correctness and not hurting anyone's feelings that we can't make uniform decisions to ban the worst stuff in this country anymore. Somebody would come out and say "Hey, it's art! It's free speech!!", at which point someone else would say, well, we can't ban it now, because that would go against that person's viewpoint.
[/QUOTE]
-Rob
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Steerforth
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
Apologize for the double post, but have a news update on this topic :
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172743.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1
Game rated AO in U.S., will severly limit retail circulation. Take 2 looking at 'options' with the rating. I will bet they will be willing to 'sacrifice' their 'artisitic vision' of this game, and self censor down to an "M" rating. When and if they do, I expect to see a lot of outrage from the Manhunt fans, and a refusal to support Take 2 and this game on the principal of abandoning art and personal freedom on the threat of something as trivial as money!
Because this game stands for so much more than mere business, right?
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172743.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1
Game rated AO in U.S., will severly limit retail circulation. Take 2 looking at 'options' with the rating. I will bet they will be willing to 'sacrifice' their 'artisitic vision' of this game, and self censor down to an "M" rating. When and if they do, I expect to see a lot of outrage from the Manhunt fans, and a refusal to support Take 2 and this game on the principal of abandoning art and personal freedom on the threat of something as trivial as money!
Because this game stands for so much more than mere business, right?
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Michael Danehy
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
Is a JFK simulation worse than a war simulation? Why is simulating one death worse than simulating thousands/millions? Is a president's life worth that much more than a soldier's?
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Edward M
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Steerforth]you still have to realize that society IS bigger than the individual and individual rights. Freedom is completely worthless without responsibilty and sacrifice.
And we can and do decide what qualifies as art and freedom of speech. All the time, every day. Can I spit in your face and call it art? Can I walk behind your wife and kids at the mall and speak crude, evil suggestive things to them, as a demonstration of my own personal freedom? Can I piss in a glass jar and force the Museum of Modern Art to display it? (Though the probably would!) Of course not, because we cannot let personal acts of depravity trump the deceny and worth of the human being.
Edward - Just because 40 years pass, doesn't make the assasination of anyone any less contriversial. Again, this is about the respect of human life. Why can't you bring yourself to defend that?
[/QUOTE]
The idea that I have to give up playing a video game on my personal time without harming anyone for the betterment of "society" is a stupid notion. Society is enriched by individual rights, and there is absolutely no point in banning a game because it harms noone. Sure you could say 1 in 1,000,000 people who play it will do a Columbine, but is it worth giving up freedom for a handful of lunatics? I love this Franklin quote. "Those who would give up Essintial Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." And thats pretty much what banning this game is. Giving up the liberty of decide what game you want to buy because some nut somewhere shoots someone. Those cases are on the fringe, and I do not support creating legislation where people are perceived to be lunatics.
"Freedom is completely worthless without responsibilty and sacrifice. "
Sacrificing what... freedom to buy the game I want? Are you saying we have to sacrifice freedom to have freedom? That makes no sense. I don't see any reason why society needs to ban this game in order to function. The vast majority of people can play the game without pulling a Columbine.
And about spitting on people, how does that compare to the game? When you spit you are hurting someone. Playing Manhunt in your own home doesn't hurt anyone. And why should the government tell someone what they can or can't do in their own home when they aren't harming anyone?
And I'm not necessarily a libertarian, just on social issues. On economic issues, I am far from a libertarian, especially on health issues because our country has about 45 million uninsured which is just stupid policy.
And I see the JFK assassination game to be a game based on historical accuracy. JFK has been dead for decades and the purpose of the game was to show that the conspiracies are false. I see him as much a historical figure as Julius Caesar. If someone made a game about his assassination, would you be offended?
And we can and do decide what qualifies as art and freedom of speech. All the time, every day. Can I spit in your face and call it art? Can I walk behind your wife and kids at the mall and speak crude, evil suggestive things to them, as a demonstration of my own personal freedom? Can I piss in a glass jar and force the Museum of Modern Art to display it? (Though the probably would!) Of course not, because we cannot let personal acts of depravity trump the deceny and worth of the human being.
Edward - Just because 40 years pass, doesn't make the assasination of anyone any less contriversial. Again, this is about the respect of human life. Why can't you bring yourself to defend that?
[/QUOTE]
The idea that I have to give up playing a video game on my personal time without harming anyone for the betterment of "society" is a stupid notion. Society is enriched by individual rights, and there is absolutely no point in banning a game because it harms noone. Sure you could say 1 in 1,000,000 people who play it will do a Columbine, but is it worth giving up freedom for a handful of lunatics? I love this Franklin quote. "Those who would give up Essintial Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." And thats pretty much what banning this game is. Giving up the liberty of decide what game you want to buy because some nut somewhere shoots someone. Those cases are on the fringe, and I do not support creating legislation where people are perceived to be lunatics.
"Freedom is completely worthless without responsibilty and sacrifice. "
Sacrificing what... freedom to buy the game I want? Are you saying we have to sacrifice freedom to have freedom? That makes no sense. I don't see any reason why society needs to ban this game in order to function. The vast majority of people can play the game without pulling a Columbine.
And about spitting on people, how does that compare to the game? When you spit you are hurting someone. Playing Manhunt in your own home doesn't hurt anyone. And why should the government tell someone what they can or can't do in their own home when they aren't harming anyone?
And I'm not necessarily a libertarian, just on social issues. On economic issues, I am far from a libertarian, especially on health issues because our country has about 45 million uninsured which is just stupid policy.
And I see the JFK assassination game to be a game based on historical accuracy. JFK has been dead for decades and the purpose of the game was to show that the conspiracies are false. I see him as much a historical figure as Julius Caesar. If someone made a game about his assassination, would you be offended?
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KanYozakura
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Steerforth]That being said, Manhunt supporters, you have your heads buried in the sand. I know you think you are high-minded, but eventually you should realize what a tiny minority you are to larger society. While you might not feel that makes you wrong, (and it doesn't neccesarily), you still have to realize that society IS bigger than the individual and individual rights. Freedom is completely worthless without responsibilty and sacrifice.[/quote]
Can you seriously spout that communist crap without giggling? THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE MANY FIGHTING THE OPPRESSION OF THE FEW. The colonies didn't like paying unjust taxes, and Britain said "Too bad! You're part of the Empire, and you need to kick in just as much as the other colonies. Come on, be a team player!" Individual rights are what make America what it is today. It's easy for you to be on your high horse about this, because you didn't like the game anyway. What if they had banned a Christian game based solely upon it's religious content? The knife can cut both ways.
[[quote]And we can and do decide what qualifies as art and freedom of speech. All the time, every day. Can I spit in your face and call it art? Can I walk behind your wife and kids at the mall and speak crude, evil suggestive things to them, as a demonstration of my own personal freedom? Can I piss in a glass jar and force the Museum of Modern Art to display it? (Though the probably would!) Of course not, because we cannot let personal acts of depravity trump the deceny and worth of the human being.[/quote]
The first two: no, as it affects their/your personal freedoms. The last one: sure (if that's what the Museum wants to do). THIS GAME ISN'T HURTING ANYONE. The game will not go out and swear at your family; the game will not spit in your face; all the game does is sit there and wait to be put into my Wii when I want to get scared ****less. I don't think you fully understand exactly what the First Amendment is protecting us from.
[quote]I brought up Christianity because it is the base of all morality in this world, and unarguably the foundation of our government and constitution, like it or not. I know not everyone believes, of course, and I will not use this board to try to convert anyone. But I am puzzled on how a counter system of moral relativity can impose a standard of basic human conduct and deceny toward one another without demanding anyone look past their own selfish, immediate, and in this case, base, desires. And the responses on this board have done nothing to clarify that to me.[/QUOTE]
Totally your opinion. Besides, it's not the government's job to make us act morally, it's OUR job. The government is not here to tell us how to live our lives; the government is here to collect money, build stuff, and make sure we don't all kill each other. It's not here to tell us how to use our Wiimotes.
Can you seriously spout that communist crap without giggling? THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON THE MANY FIGHTING THE OPPRESSION OF THE FEW. The colonies didn't like paying unjust taxes, and Britain said "Too bad! You're part of the Empire, and you need to kick in just as much as the other colonies. Come on, be a team player!" Individual rights are what make America what it is today. It's easy for you to be on your high horse about this, because you didn't like the game anyway. What if they had banned a Christian game based solely upon it's religious content? The knife can cut both ways.
[[quote]And we can and do decide what qualifies as art and freedom of speech. All the time, every day. Can I spit in your face and call it art? Can I walk behind your wife and kids at the mall and speak crude, evil suggestive things to them, as a demonstration of my own personal freedom? Can I piss in a glass jar and force the Museum of Modern Art to display it? (Though the probably would!) Of course not, because we cannot let personal acts of depravity trump the deceny and worth of the human being.[/quote]
The first two: no, as it affects their/your personal freedoms. The last one: sure (if that's what the Museum wants to do). THIS GAME ISN'T HURTING ANYONE. The game will not go out and swear at your family; the game will not spit in your face; all the game does is sit there and wait to be put into my Wii when I want to get scared ****less. I don't think you fully understand exactly what the First Amendment is protecting us from.
[quote]I brought up Christianity because it is the base of all morality in this world, and unarguably the foundation of our government and constitution, like it or not. I know not everyone believes, of course, and I will not use this board to try to convert anyone. But I am puzzled on how a counter system of moral relativity can impose a standard of basic human conduct and deceny toward one another without demanding anyone look past their own selfish, immediate, and in this case, base, desires. And the responses on this board have done nothing to clarify that to me.[/QUOTE]
Totally your opinion. Besides, it's not the government's job to make us act morally, it's OUR job. The government is not here to tell us how to live our lives; the government is here to collect money, build stuff, and make sure we don't all kill each other. It's not here to tell us how to use our Wiimotes.
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Edward M
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Steerforth]Apologize for the double post, but have a news update on this topic :
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172743.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1
Game rated AO in U.S., will severly limit retail circulation. Take 2 looking at 'options' with the rating. I will bet they will be willing to 'sacrifice' their 'artisitic vision' of this game, and self censor down to an "M" rating. When and if they do, I expect to see a lot of outrage from the Manhunt fans, and a refusal to support Take 2 and this game on the principal of abandoning art and personal freedom on the threat of something as trivial as money!
Because this game stands for so much more than mere business, right?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah they probably will censor it to get an M rating. But I don't mind this so much as the government isn't forcing them to censor it, but this is based entirely on economical reasons. I know they have to make a censored version to get it in WalMart and Best buy, but I hope they also make the uncensored version available to buy online. It is kind of disappointing that there are no AO rated games, except for a few porno games made by a few fringe groups. With the advent of the internet, there is no reason why they can't release two versions, and that would probably be the best way to maximize profit, as they will get the Wal Mart sales, without losing the hardcore gamers who will refuse to buy once they hear its been censored (Remember Mortal Kombat 1 for SNES.)
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172743.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;1
Game rated AO in U.S., will severly limit retail circulation. Take 2 looking at 'options' with the rating. I will bet they will be willing to 'sacrifice' their 'artisitic vision' of this game, and self censor down to an "M" rating. When and if they do, I expect to see a lot of outrage from the Manhunt fans, and a refusal to support Take 2 and this game on the principal of abandoning art and personal freedom on the threat of something as trivial as money!
Because this game stands for so much more than mere business, right?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah they probably will censor it to get an M rating. But I don't mind this so much as the government isn't forcing them to censor it, but this is based entirely on economical reasons. I know they have to make a censored version to get it in WalMart and Best buy, but I hope they also make the uncensored version available to buy online. It is kind of disappointing that there are no AO rated games, except for a few porno games made by a few fringe groups. With the advent of the internet, there is no reason why they can't release two versions, and that would probably be the best way to maximize profit, as they will get the Wal Mart sales, without losing the hardcore gamers who will refuse to buy once they hear its been censored (Remember Mortal Kombat 1 for SNES.)
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Edward M
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
[QUOTE=Steerforth]
I brought up Christianity because it is the base of all morality in this world, and unarguably the foundation of our government and constitution, like it or not.
[/QUOTE]
I can't believe I missed this absurd statement. The world has been around for about 4.5 billion years. Humanity has been around for about 130,000 years. Christianity has been around for about 2,000 years. And right now about one third of the people of the world are Christians. and among those thirds, most don't go to church, and most are religious liberals. So over all in the time of this planet, Christianity is of incredibly minor importance, and the idea that Christianity is the source of all morality is absurd. People were writing books on morality before Christianity, and religions that have nothing to do with Christianity have their own sets of morals. Are you gonna tell me that Christianity is the source of morality in say Saudi Arabia... or Japan?
And the idea that the constitution is based on Christianity is absurd. The constitution never mentions the bible, God or Jesus. But it does mention this. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" With that statement, the constitution is clearly religiously neutral
And is this your reasoning for wanting Manhunt 2 banned. Your religion? Shouldn't you allow people to live their life their own way instead?
I brought up Christianity because it is the base of all morality in this world, and unarguably the foundation of our government and constitution, like it or not.
[/QUOTE]
I can't believe I missed this absurd statement. The world has been around for about 4.5 billion years. Humanity has been around for about 130,000 years. Christianity has been around for about 2,000 years. And right now about one third of the people of the world are Christians. and among those thirds, most don't go to church, and most are religious liberals. So over all in the time of this planet, Christianity is of incredibly minor importance, and the idea that Christianity is the source of all morality is absurd. People were writing books on morality before Christianity, and religions that have nothing to do with Christianity have their own sets of morals. Are you gonna tell me that Christianity is the source of morality in say Saudi Arabia... or Japan?
And the idea that the constitution is based on Christianity is absurd. The constitution never mentions the bible, God or Jesus. But it does mention this. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" With that statement, the constitution is clearly religiously neutral
And is this your reasoning for wanting Manhunt 2 banned. Your religion? Shouldn't you allow people to live their life their own way instead?
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JustLikeHeaven1
- Posts: 2971
- Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm
Manhunt 2 Banned in UK
Well I certainly see no reason why this game should be banned. For those of you who haven't played the orginal Manhunt...its not that bad. Its not like you go around murdering innocent people...you are killing insane thugs and gang members.
Also they are making such a big deal out of this, but christ have you seen the graphics? Its not like this game is on the 360/PS3 where you could really push the realism of it. It has blocky character models and the blood is no worse than Tenchu or any other M rated game.
So with one weapon you might be able to castrate a person...big deal. You might only get that weapon once in the whole damn game. Its not like the game actually shows you a penis and scrotum up close getting mutilated. Games like Gears of War probably have tons more blood and violence. Yet since you are killing made up creatures its OK...(gimme a break).
I'm sorry but the media (not videogame media) whipped up the first game into a frenzy and its really not that bad. Its no worse than your average M-rated game...and its certainly no worse than an R rated movie.
Why make a big deal over a videogame and not a movie. When I was 13-14 I would try to watch R rated movies. Is this any worse than something like the movie American History X? A movie that shows you the life a Neo-nazi in America that reforms after he spends time in jail. It has one of the most brutal scenes in modern film, in which the lead character kills a black man, by stomping his head on a curb...it also has a rape scene in jail. Last time I checked this movie was only rated R. Why not make something like that NC-17? I'm just speculating, I happen to think its a great movie...but thats not my point. Had the movie been toned down it would have lost its impact.
Hell this game is nothing...its not even real. You are basically given human rights to a bunch of code and numbers!
Why not turn on the news and watch how reporters exploit people that have lost loved ones in the war...because it gets them better "ratings". All the "news" is these days is a bunch of high impact crap that is going to get the most attention. It sickens me to no end. It upsets me more than any videogame ever has.
There are so many more things people need to worry about other than a videogame...that was clearly aimed at adults. If you let your kids play it, then you are a terrible parent.
If you don't like horror movies you don't go watch them...if you don't like movies that feature sex scenes, then don't watch them. If you don't like violent vidoegames...don't buy them. Don't ruin it for everybody else. I have earned the right to choose what I can and can't do see/do/experience.
People don't have a problem with TV and Movie ratings. The fully expect children not to watch them (which is a load of BS)...so why are videogames different? Because its a medium that the majority of the world still thinks is aimed at children. These poloticians have not seen the growth of the industry. Yea it used to be something mostly kids played...back in the 80s. Well those kids have grown up and so have the games that they play.
Also they are making such a big deal out of this, but christ have you seen the graphics? Its not like this game is on the 360/PS3 where you could really push the realism of it. It has blocky character models and the blood is no worse than Tenchu or any other M rated game.
So with one weapon you might be able to castrate a person...big deal. You might only get that weapon once in the whole damn game. Its not like the game actually shows you a penis and scrotum up close getting mutilated. Games like Gears of War probably have tons more blood and violence. Yet since you are killing made up creatures its OK...(gimme a break).
I'm sorry but the media (not videogame media) whipped up the first game into a frenzy and its really not that bad. Its no worse than your average M-rated game...and its certainly no worse than an R rated movie.
Why make a big deal over a videogame and not a movie. When I was 13-14 I would try to watch R rated movies. Is this any worse than something like the movie American History X? A movie that shows you the life a Neo-nazi in America that reforms after he spends time in jail. It has one of the most brutal scenes in modern film, in which the lead character kills a black man, by stomping his head on a curb...it also has a rape scene in jail. Last time I checked this movie was only rated R. Why not make something like that NC-17? I'm just speculating, I happen to think its a great movie...but thats not my point. Had the movie been toned down it would have lost its impact.
Hell this game is nothing...its not even real. You are basically given human rights to a bunch of code and numbers!
Why not turn on the news and watch how reporters exploit people that have lost loved ones in the war...because it gets them better "ratings". All the "news" is these days is a bunch of high impact crap that is going to get the most attention. It sickens me to no end. It upsets me more than any videogame ever has.
There are so many more things people need to worry about other than a videogame...that was clearly aimed at adults. If you let your kids play it, then you are a terrible parent.
If you don't like horror movies you don't go watch them...if you don't like movies that feature sex scenes, then don't watch them. If you don't like violent vidoegames...don't buy them. Don't ruin it for everybody else. I have earned the right to choose what I can and can't do see/do/experience.
People don't have a problem with TV and Movie ratings. The fully expect children not to watch them (which is a load of BS)...so why are videogames different? Because its a medium that the majority of the world still thinks is aimed at children. These poloticians have not seen the growth of the industry. Yea it used to be something mostly kids played...back in the 80s. Well those kids have grown up and so have the games that they play.
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