Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

General and high profile video game topics.
Steerforth

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Steerforth » July 23rd, 2007, 11:32 pm

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=25796478&sid=6175516&om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;5

Here's a little gamespot blurb on Republican Presidential Hopeful Romney talking about enforcing obscenity laws to punish retailers who sell Mature games to minors.

Nothing really newsworthy or threatening here, just the concept of an excutive branch fulfilling its duty to enforce laws that are already in place and well known. Now read the comment section.

Wow, I realize this is Gamespot we are talking about, but why are gamers so physco on this issue? We have age limits for alcohal, cigarettes, movies, and etc., why is this suddenly so life and death? Cripes, get a grip, how much you wanna bet that most of these people don't vote anyway? Maybe someone can explain to me why gamers completely lose their heads en masse over this. I call Chicken Little, or maybe Chicken S-alad.

On a (unrelated?) sidenote, under this we have a little article on why Ebert the film critic thinks videogames do not qualify as art. But don't sweat it, didn't a porno (Deep Throat) get nominated for an Oscar once? There is hope for videogames yet!   



m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby m0zart1 » July 24th, 2007, 12:04 pm

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Here's a little gamespot blurb on Republican Presidential Hopeful Romney talking about enforcing obscenity laws to punish retailers who sell Mature games to minors.[/QUOTE]

I am one of the knee-jerkers.  Of course, if his statement had been worded a little more specifically, I'd likely have no objection.  Instead, it sounds like more of an attempt to expand the existing law than to enforce existing law preventing M-rated game sales to children without consent of a parent.  I tend to get up in arms whenever "local decency laws" are mentioned.

There are some comments on Gamespot that come from adults, for sure, who disagree with those existing laws (as is their right to do, by the way) and likely some like myself who weren't quite sure how to read his statement, but the real reason why you see so many reactions along this line is that most of Gamespot is made up of the under-17 crowd -- the very people playing these games with or without parental consent.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]On a (unrelated?) sidenote, under this we have a little article on why Ebert the film critic thinks videogames do not qualify as art. But don't sweat it, didn't a porno (Deep Throat) get nominated for an Oscar once? There is hope for videogames yet!   [/QUOTE]

Hmmm did it?  I've never heard that before.  I do know that an X-rated movie was nominated, namely Midnight Cowboy.  However, that film had less to object to than some PG or PG-13 movies today.  That was at the time when the X-rating hadn't come to mean pornography as it has now, which was the primary reason X was replaced with NC-17 more than a decade ago.

Still, I don't know what comparison you are trying to make here -- comparing video games to porn? -- as an argument that they aren't art?  I guess I don't see the connection or the humor.

Ebert's arguments along this line make no sense in context to his arguments about why films are art, especially when he concentrates on experiences and empathy, which some games have been able to convey to me in a way that movies cannot through their interactivity and personalization.  He reminds me of the fat elitists from the early 20th century who argued that films could never be art comparable to theater.  These days most don't concentrate on which of those two are better, but on the strengths and weaknesses that both have in comparison to each other.  Those critics from the past who made such arguments are largely forgotten now for their shortsightedness, treated as yesterday's anachronisms.  Hopefully Ebert won't lose all credibility in the future by continuing to concentrate on these pig-headed arguments.


Steerforth

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Steerforth » July 24th, 2007, 1:56 pm

Here's the humour to me - it is ironic.

The VG industry has a very negative public imagine, probably only second to the porn industry,  at least on the games the News chooses to cover and 'expose'. But, regardless, whenever you read a story that cast a negative light on games (Ebert or this Romney one), the people who bother to comment goes absolutly ballistic and live up to their own negative, sometimes sociopathic stereotypes. They never try to see both sides, they just want to blast the other viewpoint all to hell, even if it has some validity. You are what you eat, I reckon.

Why get pissed at Ebert? What do you expect him to say, he is a film Critic and many popular and well known games today are heavy on cinematics and do a predictably poor job with it. So, to him, maybe a videogame is just a poorly made movie where you have some input on the outcome, which as he points out is the opposite of a film, to present a story to make you think or care about a specific outcome.

To me an  videogame is hopefuly a fun diversion that ussually has  excellent artwork and  incorporates some great music. Thats enough for me.

Dennis

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Dennis » July 24th, 2007, 2:41 pm

Deep Throat absolutely did not get nominated for an Oscar.  No "porno" ever has.  Midnight Cowboy is the only X-rated movie to win, and as was said before, it would be rated R today.  A Clockwork Orange also was nominated with an X-rating, but it is now an R rating, as well.

As far as the topic goes - the LESS the government is involved in our lives, the BETTER.

Dennis

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Dennis » July 24th, 2007, 2:44 pm

Also - Ebert's main argument is that the video game is controlled by the player, therefore it's more created by the player and not the artist, and thus can't have the same meaning and power as other art that can't be manipulated.

Ebert's mistake is in not realizing that all video games follow a narrow path from beginning to end and are less able to be manipulated than he thinks.  For example, you might be in control when you play an RPG, but everyone who plays it is going to see the same scenes and levels in the same order, even if they go about it in different ways.

Personally, I agree that video games can be art, but it's very rare to find one that qualifies as GOOD art.

m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby m0zart1 » July 24th, 2007, 4:23 pm

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Here's the humour to me - it is ironic.

The VG industry has a very negative public imagine, probably only second to the porn industry,  at least on the games the News chooses to cover and 'expose'. But, regardless, whenever you read a story that cast a negative light on games (Ebert or this Romney one), the people who bother to comment goes absolutly ballistic and live up to their own negative, sometimes sociopathic stereotypes. They never try to see both sides, they just want to blast the other viewpoint all to hell, even if it has some validity. You are what you eat, I reckon.[/QUOTE]

I blast the opinions all to hell because they are logically flawed -- they attempt to define the industry and artwork overall by the actions of a few.  Opinions like that deserve to be blasted, even when made by "died in the wool" collectivists.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Why get pissed at Ebert? What do you expect him to say, he is a film Critic and many popular and well known games today are heavy on cinematics and do a predictably poor job with it. So, to him, maybe a videogame is just a poorly made movie where you have some input on the outcome, which as he points out is the opposite of a film, to present a story to make you think or care about a specific outcome.[/QUOTE]

He's not saying that video games are poorly made movies, because even he would concede that many poorly made movies are art.  He also isn't judging games based on public opinions surrounding them, as far as I can tell.  But if he were, then all the more insistent should any condemnation leveled at him be.

I get angry at Ebert because his opinion is baseless, being set on things he admittedly doesn't know and never experienced.  I don't think it's too much to expect him to think more clearly on a subject he is supposed to know so much about, namely art, especially by refraining from judgement on a medium he's never really experienced, namely video games.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]To me an  videogame is hopefuly a fun diversion that ussually has  excellent artwork and  incorporates some great music. Thats enough for me.[/QUOTE]

I've never accepted the art/entertainment dichotomy.  But I don't have to take that one apart here, as that is not the argument Ebert is making against video games as art.  Doing that would also exclude most of the movies he considers to be among his personal favorites -- and that's not a risk he would take.  His opinion is far more thrown together from a serious of his own personal (baseless) objections against video game components he doesn't really know anything about because he has never experienced them either alone or in combination.  His arguments show a complete lack of knowledge about the subject matter, which only demonstrates to me that someone who hasn't played many games has no real qualifications on deciding the artistic merits of such.

I am glad you like games that just diversions.  I have no problem with that.  I like those types of games too.  There are plenty of people who only watch movies for the same reason, limiting themselves to Transformers and their ilk.  But I also like movies that tell a solid story! Likewise, I like games that tell a solid story, and use some of the unique features of video game interactivity to tell it in a way that movies and even plays as artistic mediums cannot.  That's not to say video games are superior -- all artistic mediums have their own strengths and corresponding weaknesses -- but neither are they inferior to many other mediums in which stories are told in the balancing act.

Steerforth

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Steerforth » July 24th, 2007, 4:39 pm

I agree that Ebert knows nothing about games, I don't think he is claiming to. But isn't that the point?

Gaming isn't mainstream, so it gets no respect from people like Ebert. It's just funny to me that people get upset about that, and blow it all out of proportion.

Ebert is talking about high art here, and I doubt sophisticated Gamespoters will be able to change his mind by throwing trash at him!

Also, I doubt Ebert would call slummy movies art, or TV sitcoms. But I bet he mould place them above videogames.



m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby m0zart1 » July 24th, 2007, 4:53 pm

[QUOTE=Steerforth]I agree that Ebert knows nothing about games, I don't think he is claiming to. But isn't that the point?[/QUOTE]

Of course it is the point, especially when he makes specific references to the way video games operate, or judges them based on content -- when in fact he has neither experienced the way they operate nor witnessed the content.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Gaming isn't mainstream, so it gets no respect from people like Ebert. It's just funny to me that people get upset about that, and blow it all out of proportion.[/QUOTE]

When did art ever have to be mainstream?  Some art begins as mainstream, some of it does not.  Some of what we think of as art was just thought of as mindless entertainment for the masses in the day of its premier, and some of what we thought of as mindblowing art at its premier is largely forgotten now.

I don't expect Ebert to "like" video games.  I do expect him not to take his likes or dislikes and use them as feaux pas objective judgements or categorical denials of artistic merit.  If Ebert can't make judgements on ideas, mediums, or even individual contributions based on their actual individual merits rather than whether or not they are part of a larger "mainstream" group, then he has no business being a critic who claims in the least to be objective in his judgements on those contributions.  That applies not only to games but to movies as well.  I cut him no slack on this.  If that's blowing it out of proportion, then so be it.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Ebert is talking about high art here, and I doubt sophisticated Gamespoters will be able to change his mind by throwing trash at him![/QUOTE]

I don't see any meaningful distinction between "art" and "high art".  I realize it's popular among many to distinguish along those lines without ever being able to identify the criteria used to exclusively categorize one vs. the other, but I see that kind of pervading use of the "unknowable" phrases as somewhat elitist.  I prefer instead to say that some works of art just better communicate their ideas than others do, as that is a judgement we all must make on a personal level.

As for Ebert, I don't intend to change his mind.  I intend to argue against his ideas and counter them so the outliers who are still on the fence won't be so easily fooled by his rhetoric.  Other than that, I safely ignore his written opinions at this point.  I have a feeling that when time passes, he's going to be rememered the same way critics of old who dismissed film are remembered today -- i.e. barely.

[QUOTE=Steerforth]Also, I doubt Ebert would call slummy movies art, or TV sitcoms. But I bet he mould place them above videogames.[/QUOTE]

Even more reason to think his credentials as an objective critic have been grossly exaggerated.

Steerforth

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Steerforth » July 24th, 2007, 6:25 pm

I'm sorry Mozart, I just can't see Ebert in his chair breaking down some plot in a videogame. I just can't. I agree with him on one thing, art need a message.

If you can name to me a game that has some sophisticated plot that is provided insight into the human condition, please do. ( Or whatever you happen to define as artistic, thats what I look for.)

 Most games I play involve princesses baking plumbers cake, and maybe a kiss on the cheek if I'm (or Mario's) lucky. Generally speaking, the less time Nintendo spends on a story, the happier I am with the game.

Most games that I don't play, invlove people shooting the piss out of other people, or driving cars real fast, or killing cops and hookers, and so on and so forth.

Long story short, in my humble opinion, Ebert has a half nelson on you and is getting back points.

a1
Posts: 3032
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby a1 » July 24th, 2007, 6:44 pm

[QUOTE=m0zart][QUOTE=Steerforth]I agree that Ebert knows nothing about games, I don't think he is claiming to. But isn't that the point?[/QUOTE]

Of course it is the point, especially when he makes specific references to the way video games operate, or judges them based on content -- when in fact he has neither experienced the way they operate nor witnessed the content.

[/QUOTE]

That's what I hate about politicians trying to ban violent games (like Manhunt 2). It's incredibly easy to try to ban something you have never tried, and have no plan to. I'm sure any politician that actually played video games would have a different opinion of them. It is the same with Ebert. You shouldn't be allowed to act like an expert on a subject you know almost nothing about.



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