Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

General and high profile video game topics.
m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby m0zart1 » July 25th, 2007, 9:55 am

[QUOTE=Quill]Yes, I do realize that paintings and other works of art were comissioned in the past by the wealthy but they put their trust in the artist. They knew they weren't artists themselves so they trusted the painter or musician to make want they wanted.[/QUOTE]

Many artists from the past, especially in the age of the Church/Feudalist duopoly, had to fight hard to put their artistic ideas to their chosen medium without censorship, demands for which came from all corners in their age.  There were a few lucky ones who were so overwhelmingly popular with the public that restrictions were harder to enforce, but it was hardly a golden age for artists dealing with the Church's attempts to censor any heretical ideas, and the State's attempts to censor any possible subversive ideas to threaten their monarchy.


Quill

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Quill » July 25th, 2007, 10:16 am

[QUOTE=m0zart]

[QUOTE=Quill]Yes, I do realize that paintings and other works of art were comissioned in the past by the wealthy but they put their trust in the artist. They knew they weren't artists themselves so they trusted the painter or musician to make want they wanted.[/QUOTE]

Many artists from the past, especially in the age of the Church/Feudalist duopoly, had to fight hard to put their artistic ideas to their chosen medium without censorship, demands for which came from all corners in their age.  There were a few lucky ones who were so overwhelmingly popular with the public that restrictions were harder to enforce, but it was hardly a golden age for artists dealing with the Church's attempts to censor any heretical ideas, and the State's attempts to censor any possible subversive ideas to threaten their monarchy.

[/QUOTE]

Hmm definitely something I did not consider and is certainly true. However trust was still put into their talent. Where as today it seems as though many artists are not only asked to stifle their message but also their ability as well. At least they could still paint the best picture of Jesus that they could muster... as opposed to being told to 'tone it down'. I think that even then the comissioners of the projects encouraged improvement rather than strict imitation.

Certainly not a golden age for artists... but when has there really been one? I guess its one of those "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." situations.

Alienblue

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Alienblue » July 25th, 2007, 12:43 pm

As an artist myself I deffinitely think one day Videogames will be thought of as Art. The problem with todays games is , like film, there are a huge number of individuals involved, from Designer to Director. It was easier in "my" day(the 80's) to say Larry Kaplan was an artist, one programmer making one game from concept to visuals.

On the political side, I don't even believe true democracy exists anymore,sadly. He/she with the most money/power wins. The last election was decided from day one of the "debates". G.B. could say any dumb stupid moronic thing he wanted. He is KING, folks. You can't oust a King (without a revolution). The only reason to run against him is personal prestige and regonigence.

I also don't think ratings really matter. Don't you realize they made a line of ALIEN movie figures for little kids, yet ALIEN is rated R!? So why TOYS!? Because the companies KNOW kids watch these violent films, sneaking into theatres or renting tapes. The M and A ratings on games are paid more attention to at the moment because it's in the news, but kids still play them. And again, Why oh why is extreme violence, bloody killings, etc... considered so much more OKAY than a woman flashing her boob!? It's a sick sick twisted world....

Adamant1
Posts: 2088
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby Adamant1 » July 25th, 2007, 4:01 pm

[QUOTE=Alienblue] And again, Why oh why is extreme violence, bloody killings, etc... considered so much more OKAY than a woman flashing her boob!? It's a sick sick twisted country....[/QUOTE]

Fixed. It's mainly the US of A that have these ridiculous ideas.

Fun fact: Here in Norway, the 90s Spider-Man cartoon was cancelled due to it being "too violent" (and it should be noted that this particular cartoon followed some pretty strict guidelines against violence, including one that said Spidey was never allowed to hit, or cause physical harm to, another humanoid being (robots were okay, which is why they appeared a lot early on)), while a danish cartoon featuring both naked breasts and a main character whose primary interest was attempting to grope said breasts was aired in the timeslot intended for the youngest of viewers (where we got Sesame Street and similiar educational children's shows) without anyone batting an eyelid.


a1
Posts: 3032
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby a1 » July 25th, 2007, 6:53 pm

[QUOTE=Steerforth]
Easy to throw all politicians in one box, and unfair as well. But I don't disagree that 1. it is a very easy for a politician to grandstand this issue, with little danger of getting burned, 2. Rockstar has a target on its back from the games it has released in the past.

[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I made a sweeping generalization, and you called me out on it: I won't argue with that. However, while watchdog groups and local politicians probably do sincerely care about the children I think it can be argued that most televised presidential candidates are simply saying what they think the voters want to hear.

I disagree with your point that violent games hurt children, but only in the sense that the term children in this case could be anyone from 3 to 17. If we're speaking in the 3-10 range, then yes it certainly wouldn't be good to let the child play M games, but older than that, I think any behavioral problems are due to something other than GTA.

One more thing. I hate to call someone out on a joke, but it was Jon Edwards who had the $600 haircut, not Mitt Romney.

feilong801
Posts: 2173
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Gamers are Knee-Jerk Reactionaries.

Postby feilong801 » July 26th, 2007, 12:58 am

Interesting thread with many different "sub-threads." I'll tackle a few that interest me.

Steerforth, I agree largely with your OP. I am usually in the absolute tiny minority who writes some sort of comment saying "we should at least care A LITTLE about the high levels of violence in games."

Though some of us here can articulate the "we shouldn't care" position very well and with solid reasoning (even if I don't agree with all of it), I tend to notice most of the folks that leave comments on Gamespot and other sites come off as very thoughtless. I doubt they've pondered the issues that we do here. It seems as though they only are motivated by a selfish desire to have access to anything they want, regardless of any consequences.

As to the art issue, I do believe games are an art. I agree with m0zart in that I am not a cultural elitest. While something can be of higher quality than something else, I don't tend to put something on the "high art" shelf. Attending a pompous, stuffed shirt liberal arts college, where idiots composed trite music that was lauded by their tenured for life professors as brilliant, cured me of any such arrogance. Fortunately, since I studied Jazz at college, a medium (while certainly having its share of stuffed shirts) which requires a degree of humility, as the local bar is still your main venue, not the concert stage.

When it comes to movies and videogames (and books), I look for an experience that takes me to another world. I look for that "out of body" experience when I play/watch/read. So games that do that, such as Twilight Princess, Resident Evil 4, Actraiser, Final Fantasy VII, etc., that is when I think something has achieved a greater level of artistry.

It is possible, though, that I was only entertained. But I don't think so. In games, so many different kinds of art have to be engaged to make this happen. We know that there are visual and auditory art that is going on in a game. But what about the artistry of gameplay balance? Level design? The programming (the efficiency of which determines whether it will work at all?). I love the cross-disciplinary aspect of games, and to me that gives it "art" status. This is also true of movies, which was why I was shocked when Ebert made his infamous opinion.

As to pre-20th century Western art in general, I have always felt that some of the limitations present in those days created, well, better art. Again, this comes from a bias that I will readily admit: witnessing what passed for art by tenured university professors who had their jobs guaranteed but have almost zero accountability. Shoot, most college music programs have attendance requirements for the students, so even the most insepid composers/performers are assured an audience (I do think the attendance requirement for music programs is good, despite this). I mean, I have literally listened to pieces of "music" that consisted of television static and some fellow taking a trombone apart while playing random notes into it. 

This is not to say that we should "go back" to the way it was. Most of my issues are with the current university system anyway. But the masters (forgive me for being music centric, it is what I know) like Beethoven and Mozart managed to make music that was not only "elite," but was indeed listened to by the "unwashed rabble." Today was seem to have P Diddy on one end of the spectrum, and Philip Glass on the other.

-Rob 


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