The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

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ZetaX1
Posts: 577
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby ZetaX1 » March 2nd, 2015, 1:18 am

Most of that "native" gameplay video is just prerendered background footage. Just like that 5 second clip of the "game" from that other video (from the other, strangely similar thread.)

To suggest that a Jaguar is equal (or greater?!) than a Dreamcast is ludicrous. You like the brighter prerendered background from the Jag more than the homebrew on the Dreamcast...fine. Your highly subjective preference does not denote superior hardware specs. You like an older art style, we get it. Any of a number of newer machines could replicate it...none really chose to. It fell out of favor, it was the "Members Only" jacket of it's time.

Atarifever1
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The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Atarifever1 » March 2nd, 2015, 8:16 am

Jon, I really want to understand your point (in no small part because I dislike the PS1 so much). However, I'm unclear by what you mean about the Jaguar having a "cleaner look," or what you meant previously when you said something about digitized games on other systems. I also don't understand what you mean about modern 2D games being different than where they should be as regards their look. Do you mind elaborating? I may agree with you, but I'm not really sure what we're talking about here.

Sut1
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Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Sut1 » March 2nd, 2015, 9:15 am

I also don't think you can use demo scene games as 'evidence'.
A good example from years ago is Shadow of the Beast, this was the Amiga's killer app. The Atari ST version was shocking in comparison, poor colours, poor scrolling and less parallax. A team of demo sceners released a demo showing SOTB backdrops identical to the Amiga version, they managed to get the ST to perform comparably with the Amiga. But the fact of the matter remained that main stream development teams didn't have the resources, talent, time or knowledge to get the ST performing at that level for commercial releases. The same applies to the Jag's Native demo.

scotland171
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The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby scotland171 » March 2nd, 2015, 10:35 am

[QUOTE=Sut]I also don't think you can use demo scene games as 'evidence'. ...the fact of the matter remained that main stream development teams didn't have the resources, talent, time or knowledge to get the ST performing at that level for commercial releases. The same applies to the Jag's Native demo.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, my friend.   A demo is not a game.

The Amiga itself is a great example of both a demo scene and graphics scene that can really amaze to this day.  However, a 5 second demo just lacks serious gravitas on which to extrapolate an opinion about a system. 


JWK1
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Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby JWK1 » March 2nd, 2015, 11:32 am

[QUOTE=Jon]I've been vocal about how upset I am that advanced 2d technology was suppressed in 1993 and never saw the light of day, technology that could have rendered the SNES and Genesis obsolete and changed the face of video game history. It's a disgrace that demos from the Jaguar look way better than anything that has come out since. Then it comes back with the Wii and Wii U in the same childlike format that made everyone sick of it in the first place, while systems like the Dreamcast didn't come close to showing off what was possible? It's really disjointed the way it happened, and incredibly disappointing. Why has no one put out games that took advantage of this technology? So that Sega and Nintendo could reap the profits until 1997 with embarrassing graphics for the time (like Donkey Kong Country 2 in 1996) that were so obsolete it's amazing it was even allowed to happen? So that Sony could run rough shot over the industry all these years?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzKR7pFPb8c[/QUOTE]

You're making entirely too much of these demos. They're demos. Get a grip. Why wasn't more made of this technology? That's a question for Atari. If your system is failing it's your job to create the games that show what the system is capable of and in turn draw third party developers. Nintendo does this all the time. Perhaps more wasn't made of these demos because that's all they are: a demonstration of possibility, but not necessarily a demonstration of reality. Otherwise Atari would have been cranking out amazing 2D games left and right. That would certainly explain the Jaguar's mediocre library.

Jon1
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The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Jon1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:18 pm

It's appalling how you guys disregard facts I present and make up your own stories. First off, no one has been able to explain why advanced 2d technology was squashed in 1993 to keep Sega's and Nintendo's primitive systems on top of the industry, and then quickly transition to ugly, underwhelming 3d. Why not? Could it be that there is no credible explanation? And I said I'd stop bolding my comments, but no one can answer that question. Secondly, it was proven that the developers didn't need to rely on the 68k and that there was never a game that came close to pushing the system to the limit. For you guys to disregard that fact and say things like, you see, it wasn't capable of producing games equal to those 5 second clips or the playable Native level. Well, you're right. The developers didn't know how to use the system, which we all know has been proven. Therefore, basically everyone arguing with me makes absolutely no sense. Third, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at Native side by side with Sturmwind to realize that the Dreamcast had a terrible fog problem that did a disservice to the original demo. I think it's laughable that you guys claim I need to articulate that, just look at videos, they don't lie. And, for the millionth time, I never said the Jag had better all around 2d capabilities than the Dreamcast, just that the Dreamcast's 2d graphics were very blurry and, since they were supposedly carrying the torch for 2d, it's an extreme disappointment. But just looking at the videos, the Jag never had that fog problem. I asked a question in my last post that no one answered. Guess what? It proves I'm right and you guys just purposely ignored it because you can't touch it.

Jon1
Posts: 378
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby Jon1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:33 pm

There's nothing to talk about until someone gives me a credible explanation as to why advanced 2d technology was squashed in the early 90s.

ptdebate1
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The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby ptdebate1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:38 pm

Jon, no one can answer that because it's a loaded question: it assumes the premise that there was some kind of conspiracy to "squash" good 2D graphics. What really happened is that software developers and hardware manufacturers did what they always do and responded to market forces such as consumer expectations and technology. People wanted their favorite franchises (Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Strider, Madden) and ports of their favorite 3D arcade games, neither of which the Jaguar could provide. 2D graphics were passé in 1995. Nowadays they're cool again. All of this is determined by what the majority of consumers want.

Also Jon, the "fog" you're referring to is a graphical feature of this particular game. If you don't like it, blame the visual artist on the game, not the whole Dreamcast console. Again, the DC's 480p rendering resolution is four times sharper than the Jag's 240i, which only scans 128 alternating horizontal lines per 1/30 second at 30fps compared to the DC's 480 lines scanned per 1/30 second at the same frame rate. That means a much sharper image.

HardcoreSadism1
Posts: 526
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby HardcoreSadism1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:48 pm

[QUOTE=Jon]There's nothing to talk about until someone gives me a credible explanation as to why advanced 2d technology was squashed in the early 90s.[/QUOTE]

It's not that it was squashed, you are just nostalgically ironic.

JWK1
Posts: 904
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

The Twisted Farce that is the Evolution of 2d

Postby JWK1 » March 2nd, 2015, 3:50 pm

It's far more appalling that what you think you are presenting is facts.

It's two 4 second demos and you've turned them into the greatest thing to ever happen to gaming. Developers have never been keen on losing money so they didn't spend a lot of resources on Jaguar games and you've somehow turned this into a JFK-murder conspiracy. No one "suppressed" the Jaguar. It's just that no one gave a damn about the system and for some reason you have a really hard time with that.

I would let this issue go. You have absolutely no evidence that the Jaguar would have changed the industry in any meaningful way. You like the demos. That's great. It doesn't mean the points you are making magically become "facts." You also have no evidence that the industry has somehow been trying to suppress the capabilities of the Jaguar. It just means two 4 second clips ended up on YouTube and you like them. Neat! Time to move on.

The biggest issue here is that you are displaying some seriously aggressive anti-social behavior. If you want people to interact with you in a respectful manner, try antagonizing them less.


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