Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

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Sonicx9
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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby Sonicx9 » January 9th, 2019, 5:14 pm

Which is better/more next gen in terms of graphics and gameplay and why? Also do you think that 8 player Smash Ice Climbers would have worked on Wii U or not really considering the weak Wii U CPU?: https://youtu.be/LEZLvXDZOqA?t=647Also would have Super Smash Bros. for Wii U sold like Ultimate if no 3DS version existed because according to the Media Create Sales figures Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sold around 1,220,535 at launch week, and Wii U/3DS launch week was a combined total of 1,172,171 slightly less then Ultimate.

It an interesting discussion as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is a what if situation if no 3DS existed and it was Wii U only, but for a different system. The Wii U could have been in a different situation if no 3DS existed back in 2014=dumbest move ever almost as dumb as Titanfall 1 being on Xbox One/Xbox 360 and PC when it should have been Xbox One exclusive which or would have made no difference?

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ptdebate
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby ptdebate » January 10th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:Which is better/more next gen in terms of graphics and gameplay and why? Also do you think that 8 player Smash Ice Climbers would have worked on Wii U or not really considering the weak Wii U CPU?: https://youtu.be/LEZLvXDZOqA?t=647Also would have Super Smash Bros. for Wii U sold like Ultimate if no 3DS version existed because according to the Media Create Sales figures Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sold around 1,220,535 at launch week, and Wii U/3DS launch week was a combined total of 1,172,171 slightly less then Ultimate.

It an interesting discussion as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is a what if situation if no 3DS existed and it was Wii U only, but for a different system. The Wii U could have been in a different situation if no 3DS existed back in 2014=dumbest move ever almost as dumb as Titanfall 1 being on Xbox One/Xbox 360 and PC when it should have been Xbox One exclusive which or would have made no difference?


Didn't you answer your own question? It's a truism that the version of Smash on 2017 hardware performs better than the version on 2012 hardware.

The 3DS version was a dumb move? Seems like your argument hinges on the notion that both versions exhibit feature parity, leading to a situation where the technically "superior" version must compromise to more closely match its portable cousin.

Except that's not the case with Smash at all. Stylistically, technically, and in terms of feature set, Smash U and Smash 3DS are very different games, well-optimised for their respective platforms.

Finally, if you are Nintendo, and you have a console with an install base in the tens of millions, and another with barely 10 million, it would be "dumb" to only release your hottest title on the latter, ignoring the former.

Sonicx9
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby Sonicx9 » January 10th, 2019, 5:29 pm

ptdebate wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:Which is better/more next gen in terms of graphics and gameplay and why? Also do you think that 8 player Smash Ice Climbers would have worked on Wii U or not really considering the weak Wii U CPU?: https://youtu.be/LEZLvXDZOqA?t=647Also would have Super Smash Bros. for Wii U sold like Ultimate if no 3DS version existed because according to the Media Create Sales figures Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sold around 1,220,535 at launch week, and Wii U/3DS launch week was a combined total of 1,172,171 slightly less then Ultimate.

It an interesting discussion as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is a what if situation if no 3DS existed and it was Wii U only, but for a different system. The Wii U could have been in a different situation if no 3DS existed back in 2014=dumbest move ever almost as dumb as Titanfall 1 being on Xbox One/Xbox 360 and PC when it should have been Xbox One exclusive which or would have made no difference?


Didn't you answer your own question? It's a truism that the version of Smash on 2017 hardware performs better than the version on 2012 hardware.

The 3DS version was a dumb move? Seems like your argument hinges on the notion that both versions exhibit feature parity, leading to a situation where the technically "superior" version must compromise to more closely match its portable cousin.

Except that's not the case with Smash at all. Stylistically, technically, and in terms of feature set, Smash U and Smash 3DS are very different games, well-optimised for their respective platforms.

Finally, if you are Nintendo, and you have a console with an install base in the tens of millions, and another with barely 10 million, it would be "dumb" to only release your hottest title on the latter, ignoring the former.


First of all they had to do feature parity for the following that got removed because of the 3DS version interfearing FYI "Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters, King Dedede Side Special not have Waddle Dee come out like they are in Brawl, and Olimar only have 3 Pikmin at time rather than 6 compared to Brawl." so 3DS did hold back things for Wii U, also some people do think Smash is not a Wii U exclusive as said here: https://youtu.be/FkuL1UVHYJA?t=156 or are they wrong. Also it is so odd that they did this making Super Smash Bros. 2014 aka for Wii U and 3DS multi console, and it odd that people did not complain about that yet their are people that complained that Titanfall 1 was on both Xbox 360 and PC when it was meant to be exclusive, and Rise of the Tomb Raider was on Xbox 360 when it was never meant to be on last gen double standards much.

But then again I am not a fan of 8th gen consoles outside of Switch and lesser degree the 3DS and Vita, as I thought this gen was garbage anyways and it shows when the god awful PC Master Race exposes how much of a piece of trash the 8th gen consoles are: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/wiki/guide

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ptdebate
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby ptdebate » January 15th, 2019, 2:13 am

Did they add back the additional 3 Pikmin in Smash Ultimate? You don't think the point was to reduce visual clutter?

Sonicx9
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby Sonicx9 » January 15th, 2019, 1:03 pm

ptdebate wrote:Did they add back the additional 3 Pikmin in Smash Ultimate? You don't think the point was to reduce visual clutter?

Oddly it is 3 and not 6 like the last game: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSBU), but at least Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters are restored however.

VicViper
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby VicViper » January 15th, 2019, 5:45 pm

ptdebate wrote:Did they add back the additional 3 Pikmin in Smash Ultimate? You don't think the point was to reduce visual clutter?


The main point of 3 Pikmins vs 6 Pikmins was balancing, there were heavy camping strategies in Brawl involved with 6 Pikmins.

Graphically, I doubt the 3DS game would've been unable to handle 6 Pikmins (even times 4), contrarily to the Ice Climbers or even the Luma, the Pikmins don't really have a separate AI, or it's way more simplified, and it saves on CPU power. The second Ice Climber actually tries for a recovery when offstage and tries very hard to follow the main Ice Climber; she isn't tethered and has movement of her own, while the Pikmins are tethered to Olimar until he throws them.

Oddly it is 3 and not 6 like the last game: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSBU), but at least Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters are restored however.


What transformations?

From Brawl to Smash 4, we Sheik & Zelda were separated, same for Samus & Zero Suit Samus. They're still remaining in Ultimate as they were in Smash 4.

The only "transformation character" that wasn't there in Smash 4 and got into Smash Ultimate is Pokémon Trainer, and really, if Melee after only 11 months of development on an early released GameCube managed to implement transformations, with talent, more development time, and 12 more years of software knowledge, I have little doubt they would've been able to make it happen on the 3DS (the 3DS might be less powerful than the GC, but the 3DS natively outputs at lower resolutions, so there's leftovers in processing power)

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DrLitch
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby DrLitch » January 15th, 2019, 9:36 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:But then again I am not a fan of 8th gen consoles outside of Switch and lesser degree the 3DS and Vita, as I thought this gen was garbage anyways and it shows when the god awful PC Master Race exposes how much of a piece of trash the 8th gen consoles are: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/wiki/guide


I remember well when the PS4 came out, once I started seeing stock on shelves I had a newly built PC - an i7-4770K/GTX 780Ti and 16GB 1600MHz DDR3 Corsair Dominator Ram. This PC had cost me about $3000 to assemble at the time and it absolutely was leagues ahead of the PS4 performance wise. Forget 30fps @ 1080p, we talking more than 60fps @ 1080p settings maxed out and 2K gaming at 60fps with some settings tweaks. This was December 2013. I was really pleased, and really broke! I had to wait more than 1 year to, in good conscience, buy a PS4 because of that PC build. When I got the PS4, PC hardware had moved onto Skylake and Maxwell architecture and the PS4 was positively antiquated hardware wise. A 980Ti at this time with an i7-6700K could actually render 4K at playable frame rates with some settings tweaked. PC gaming had indeed well exceeded Console hardware more so than in past generations. It was not quite like this when the PS3 and Xbox360 came out though. The PS3 was actually powerful. Heck the old PC joke is "Can it play Crysis?" The PS3/Xbox360 sure as heck could. Although the PC could as well, you just had to pay a good amount of scratch to run it at 60fps ;)

Irrespective of what you think of PS4/Xbox hardware, there is a catch.....

Nobody buys the PS4 or Xbox One for the hardware, they buy the hardware because it is a necessary step to play the software.

Put another way, a PC gamer cannot play God of War, Bloodbourne, Red Dead Redemption 2, Persona 5, Horizon Zero Dawn, or Spiderman. These are just some of the exclusives by Sony, there are a great number of good games.

Some of those Sony and Nintendo exclusives are pretty darn good, good enough to justify purchasing the console. Pity that Nintendo's weak hardware specs makes them a target for PC emulation...

Conversely, some console games actually do play better than they do on the PC - not all PC ports are up to scratch, some are absolutely terrible. Nier Automata and Arkham Knight being two in recent memory - horrible PC ports. Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Ghost Recon Wildlands struggle to hit 60fps for me, hovering in low 40's on my 4K Monitor. Admittingly, neither game runs at higher than 30fps on the Xbox One X either, but the Xbox One X did not cost me $2500 to build for a measly 10fps extra :twisted:

Sonicx9
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby Sonicx9 » January 15th, 2019, 9:39 pm

VicViper wrote:
ptdebate wrote:Did they add back the additional 3 Pikmin in Smash Ultimate? You don't think the point was to reduce visual clutter?


The main point of 3 Pikmins vs 6 Pikmins was balancing, there were heavy camping strategies in Brawl involved with 6 Pikmins.

Graphically, I doubt the 3DS game would've been unable to handle 6 Pikmins (even times 4), contrarily to the Ice Climbers or even the Luma, the Pikmins don't really have a separate AI, or it's way more simplified, and it saves on CPU power. The second Ice Climber actually tries for a recovery when offstage and tries very hard to follow the main Ice Climber; she isn't tethered and has movement of her own, while the Pikmins are tethered to Olimar until he throws them.

Oddly it is 3 and not 6 like the last game: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSBU), but at least Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters are restored however.


What transformations?

From Brawl to Smash 4, we Sheik & Zelda were separated, same for Samus & Zero Suit Samus. They're still remaining in Ultimate as they were in Smash 4.

The only "transformation character" that wasn't there in Smash 4 and got into Smash Ultimate is Pokémon Trainer, and really, if Melee after only 11 months of development on an early released GameCube managed to implement transformations, with talent, more development time, and 12 more years of software knowledge, I have little doubt they would've been able to make it happen on the 3DS (the 3DS might be less powerful than the GC, but the 3DS natively outputs at lower resolutions, so there's leftovers in processing power)


What I meant is because of the 3DS co existing, we had Sheik & Zelda and Samus & Zero Suit Samus separated for the respective and Pokémon Trainer was cut down to just Charizard leaving both Squirtle and Ivysaur out of Smash 4 along with Ice Climbers. So 3DS caused not 1 but 3 characters to be axed along with 4 characters being separated for the respective characters. Such a dumb compermise just for 3DS when it should have been a Wii U exclusive.

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ptdebate
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby ptdebate » January 16th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Sonicx9 wrote:
VicViper wrote:
ptdebate wrote:Did they add back the additional 3 Pikmin in Smash Ultimate? You don't think the point was to reduce visual clutter?


The main point of 3 Pikmins vs 6 Pikmins was balancing, there were heavy camping strategies in Brawl involved with 6 Pikmins.

Graphically, I doubt the 3DS game would've been unable to handle 6 Pikmins (even times 4), contrarily to the Ice Climbers or even the Luma, the Pikmins don't really have a separate AI, or it's way more simplified, and it saves on CPU power. The second Ice Climber actually tries for a recovery when offstage and tries very hard to follow the main Ice Climber; she isn't tethered and has movement of her own, while the Pikmins are tethered to Olimar until he throws them.

Oddly it is 3 and not 6 like the last game: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSBU), but at least Ice Climbers characters, transformations for characters are restored however.


What transformations?

From Brawl to Smash 4, we Sheik & Zelda were separated, same for Samus & Zero Suit Samus. They're still remaining in Ultimate as they were in Smash 4.

The only "transformation character" that wasn't there in Smash 4 and got into Smash Ultimate is Pokémon Trainer, and really, if Melee after only 11 months of development on an early released GameCube managed to implement transformations, with talent, more development time, and 12 more years of software knowledge, I have little doubt they would've been able to make it happen on the 3DS (the 3DS might be less powerful than the GC, but the 3DS natively outputs at lower resolutions, so there's leftovers in processing power)


What I meant is because of the 3DS co existing, we had Sheik & Zelda and Samus & Zero Suit Samus separated for the respective and Pokémon Trainer was cut down to just Charizard leaving both Squirtle and Ivysaur out of Smash 4 along with Ice Climbers. So 3DS caused not 1 but 3 characters to be axed along with 4 characters being separated for the respective characters. Such a dumb compermise just for 3DS when it should have been a Wii U exclusive.


Your imagination never ceases to astound me.

ActRaiser
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Re: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate vs Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Postby ActRaiser » January 16th, 2019, 9:42 pm

ptdebate wrote:
Sonicx9 wrote:
VicViper wrote:
The main point of 3 Pikmins vs 6 Pikmins was balancing, there were heavy camping strategies in Brawl involved with 6 Pikmins.

Graphically, I doubt the 3DS game would've been unable to handle 6 Pikmins (even times 4), contrarily to the Ice Climbers or even the Luma, the Pikmins don't really have a separate AI, or it's way more simplified, and it saves on CPU power. The second Ice Climber actually tries for a recovery when offstage and tries very hard to follow the main Ice Climber; she isn't tethered and has movement of her own, while the Pikmins are tethered to Olimar until he throws them.



What transformations?

From Brawl to Smash 4, we Sheik & Zelda were separated, same for Samus & Zero Suit Samus. They're still remaining in Ultimate as they were in Smash 4.

The only "transformation character" that wasn't there in Smash 4 and got into Smash Ultimate is Pokémon Trainer, and really, if Melee after only 11 months of development on an early released GameCube managed to implement transformations, with talent, more development time, and 12 more years of software knowledge, I have little doubt they would've been able to make it happen on the 3DS (the 3DS might be less powerful than the GC, but the 3DS natively outputs at lower resolutions, so there's leftovers in processing power)


What I meant is because of the 3DS co existing, we had Sheik & Zelda and Samus & Zero Suit Samus separated for the respective and Pokémon Trainer was cut down to just Charizard leaving both Squirtle and Ivysaur out of Smash 4 along with Ice Climbers. So 3DS caused not 1 but 3 characters to be axed along with 4 characters being separated for the respective characters. Such a dumb compermise just for 3DS when it should have been a Wii U exclusive.


Your imagination never ceases to astound me.


That's one way to describe it...


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