Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

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JasonhasRSI1
Posts: 712
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby JasonhasRSI1 » March 1st, 2009, 2:51 pm

[QUOTE=BanjoPickles]Why, any time things work against them, they feel like they have to remind the world that "NINTENDO'S FOR KIDS!!" The Wii's doing well? It must be those darned 12 year olds because no adult plays the Wii! The DS? Kids! From what I've been reading, Chinatown Wars supposedly SMOKES the two installments for the psp. Certainly not on graphics or sound, but rather gameplay where it counts. Apart from the few jockish meatheads in my group that fall for this kind of spin, most of my friends own a ds and see it for what it is!
[/QUOTE]

Why does this bother you so much?

m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby m0zart1 » March 1st, 2009, 3:07 pm

[QUOTE=JasonhasRSI][QUOTE=BanjoPickles]Why, any time things work against them, they feel like they have to remind the world that "NINTENDO'S FOR KIDS!!" The Wii's doing well? It must be those darned 12 year olds because no adult plays the Wii! The DS? Kids! From what I've been reading, Chinatown Wars supposedly SMOKES the two installments for the psp. Certainly not on graphics or sound, but rather gameplay where it counts. Apart from the few jockish meatheads in my group that fall for this kind of spin, most of my friends own a ds and see it for what it is![/QUOTE]

Why does this bother you so much? [/QUOTE]

Doesn't it bother you when someone like Steerforth slams perfectly good games or even whole platforms as the fodder of dumb drunken jocks and high fratboys?

When someone slams Nintendo as a kiddie platform, even when it gets more mature games, it effectively feels like you're being called a kid.

JasonhasRSI1
Posts: 712
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby JasonhasRSI1 » March 1st, 2009, 3:47 pm

[QUOTE=m0zart]

When someone slams Nintendo as a kiddie platform, even when it gets more mature games, it effectively feels like you're being called a kid.
[/QUOTE]

So what? You (presumably) know that you're not a kid, so why let some airhead company executives or (worse) an anonymous internet persona have any effect on you or your enjoyment of a product?

steer

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby steer » March 1st, 2009, 4:05 pm

Doesn't it bother you when someone like Steerforth slams perfectly good games or even whole platforms as the fodder of dumb drunken jocks and high fratboys?

That is a bit of an exageration. Here is my defense.

1. I have never seen a game that had entertaing cinema the whole way through. I am a big anti fan of game cinema. Cinema, good or bad, interupts gameplay. Splicing a movie like, say, Dirty Harry, with gaming segments (keeping the origional film) would disrupt and ruin the movie. Game cinema is held in VERY low esteem by film critics, because it deserves it. I am not sure the game film industry has bested the pronography industry in terms of quality. Just my opinion.

2. Many games that are labeled mature are often sophmoric. I really cannot see how this can be disputed.

3. Loading a game with gratuitous swearing or violence does not 'make it for adults' as many game reviewers claim.

4. The game industries targeted demographic, in general is teenage boys, or teenage boys + college kids + under 30 males. And they are catered and pandered to. Now that is not neccesarily bad, but agian, the steryotpes that are perpetuated ARE of the fratboy variety.

5. Have you ever seen the VGAwards on Spike TV? I rest my case. Jack Black in whitie tighties pepring to have sex with a PS3 and an XBOX 360 - who is that aimed at Mozart? Give me a break.

6. Look at Mariot Guy's 'Madden Nation topic - go watch that - I rest my case.

7. The 'number' of hardcore gamers? I would like to know what it is, but I believe it to be fairly small. I mean, EGM died with 600,000 subscribers, reportedly. So if Mature games- the 'Hardcore' staple-  are only for '18 and up', how many 'Hardcore Gamers' would the industry loose if Minors were not counted in that number? Minors are UNDOUBTEDLY targeted and catered for 'Mature' games..

 8. Ask some posters here about their experiences on XBOX live. We have had some very amusing topics here about that. 

9. Games are ROUTINLY hyoped for being counterculture/violent. That is the most important factor to having a game hyped.  

10 Many many mamny people are sick to their stoimch by the success of the Wii, because they are not being catered to by Nintendo. Their insercurity, instead of apathy, say, is very telling.

So no, I am not writing of entire games and platforms...I am just saying that the fratboy steryotype is perpetuated and catered to by most of the game media and by several game makers. Game quality may or may not be an issue, that would be a case by case.

I dont know why I have to be the boogie man.

BanjoPickles1
Posts: 1321
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby BanjoPickles1 » March 1st, 2009, 4:27 pm

Well, Jason, we all have those things that bug us don't we? I guess that, after fourteen years, it gets a little old. It simply comes off like sour grapes. As I've said before, did Nintendo gripe like this when Square went off with Sony? Did Nintendo call into question the amount that Final Fantasy VII would sell on the ps1? No, they didn't. I just have the attitude of, instead of wasting the time that it takes berating the competition, work towards making your own console all the better. All bias aside, I have not heard even a peep from Nintendo in reference to the competition. The little they've said essentially boils down to "we're not going down the same road they're going." Fantastic, and it tells me everything I need to know. Do I need Dave Koller(or whatever his name is) practically telling me that what I'm playing is designated for a child? When I think of an electronics device aimed at children, I think of Leapster! It wouldn't be so annoying, Jason, if they just once shut up about it. What they're doing is so far removed from what Nintendo's doing so what's the point in taking such a low road? Once again, that's me and it both irritates and fascinates me, all at once. I'm the same way with bands trashing other bands as well. Just shut up and focus on making your own music better. The idea of putting your money where your mouth is. I don't want to hear about Nintendo in a Kaz Harai interview, but I would like to read about Sony in a Sony interview! Tell me what you're doing!
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with my opinion, Jason.

steer

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby steer » March 1st, 2009, 9:30 pm

And BTW I am not alone, Mozart.

Here is snippet of an interview from the new Nintendo Power, with Pagnitov, the inventor of Tetris. Note he isn't even prompted to talk about game violence AT ALL :

NP : Generally speaking, what is it you like about puzzles and puzzle games?

Pajnitv : Hmmm, I don't know. I'm very much into games. I like to play all kinds of stuff. I like the competition. And I like the challenge. But it's really a pity when the games are really violent and aggressive. So my preference is to have an intellectual challenge - that's why puzzles are my favorite genre.

Why would he go that route, unprompted? Obviously he is concerned about game violence as well, he defines himself against it. Clearly he is not going to rush out and buy GTA DS when it launches...

You dont have to like it, but I am sick of ppl expecting me to apologize or be ashamed of having values. I am not telling what you to do or play, just staing my opinon on a discussion forum.



JasonhasRSI1
Posts: 712
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby JasonhasRSI1 » March 1st, 2009, 10:16 pm

[QUOTE=BanjoPickles]
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with my opinion, Jason.
[/QUOTE]

LOL, who said anything was wrong with your opinion? I just asked a question. Good lord.

m0zart1
Posts: 3117
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby m0zart1 » March 2nd, 2009, 3:14 am

[QUOTE=steer]1. I have never seen a game that had entertaing cinema the whole way through. I am a big anti fan of game cinema. Cinema, good or bad, interupts gameplay. Splicing a movie like, say, Dirty Harry, with gaming segments (keeping the origional film) would disrupt and ruin the movie. Game cinema is held in VERY low esteem by film critics, because it deserves it. I am not sure the game film industry has bested the pronography industry in terms of quality. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, well I have seen a game that had entertaining cinema all the way through.  I am not sure how film to game translations fit into this though, since those films are rarely made by a game developer.  But since you brought it up, I am convinced that games can tell a better story in more intricate detail.  Stories in games can be more complex than can be told in a movie, and much of the story can easily tie into gameplay.  The stories of Silent Hill and Silent Hill 2 are extremely interesting and very deep, deeper than I've ever seen properly told in any film.

BTW, your last quip about pornography shows your "biased" side, not your "thinking" side (assuming you have one).  While movie versions of games like Silent Hill might not have been typical movie fodder, I can't think of a single porn film that is better made.

[QUOTE=steer]2. Many games that are labeled mature are often sophmoric. I really cannot see how this can be disputed.[/QUOTE]

"Many" movies that are labeled as mature are often sophmoric.  "Many" books that are labeled mature are often sophomoric.  But many other games in all three genres are also labeled mature and are NOT sophomoric.  The problem with you is that you speak in sweeping generalizations, especially where the gaming industry is concerned.

[QUOTE=steer]3. Loading a game with gratuitous swearing or violence does not 'make it for adults' as many game reviewers claim.[/QUOTE]

The term "adult" is used in those cases to mean "something children shouldn't be playing", not "something that all adults will love".  When you misuse words like that, or try to play word games with common phrases that have clear meanings, it makes you appear as very disingenuous.

[QUOTE=steer]4. The game industries targeted demographic, in general is teenage boys, or teenage boys + college kids + under 30 males. And they are catered and pandered to. Now that is not neccesarily bad, but agian, the steryotpes that are perpetuated ARE of the fratboy variety.[/QUOTE]

One set are.  But not every game, even in the "mature" realm, caters to that demographic.  Again, you make sweeping generalizations and then start handing out your imaginary citations.

[QUOTE=steer]5. Have you ever seen the VGAwards on Spike TV? I rest my case. Jack Black in whitie tighties pepring to have sex with a PS3 and an XBOX 360 - who is that aimed at Mozart? Give me a break.[/QUOTE]

Oh give me a break!  You pick out an awards show and try to use that as "rest my case" proof of something?  The entire industry isn't made up of customers having sex from chandeliers.

I know mostly fans of the 360, not the Wii, and not one of them is some kind of immoral person who is ready to win a Darwin award by sticking their member into a running console.

[QUOTE=steer]6. Look at Mariot Guy's 'Madden Nation topic - go watch that - I rest my case.[/QUOTE]

I intend to watch it, but I doubt it will "rest your case" either.  As Atarifever pointed out, that's fiction.

[QUOTE=steer]7. The 'number' of hardcore gamers? I would like to know what it is, but I believe it to be fairly small. I mean, EGM died with 600,000 subscribers, reportedly. So if Mature games- the 'Hardcore' staple-  are only for '18 and up', how many 'Hardcore Gamers' would the industry loose if Minors were not counted in that number? Minors are UNDOUBTEDLY targeted and catered for 'Mature' games..[/QUOTE]

And now I wonder what you are getting at.  It seems that once again you've made a case against some content you object to and then conflated that with "hardcore gamers".  Are you really living in such a one-dimensional world?

[QUOTE=steer]8. Ask some posters here about their experiences on XBOX live. We have had some very amusing topics here about that.[/QUOTE]

I've been on XBOX Live for many years.  I've had almost no bad experiences.  In fact, it's been an excellent place to play games with friends.

You paint the whole Live experience as one thing because you've written it off in that absurd simplistic way you usually do, and doing that writing off bit is very convenient for you -- a replacement for "thinking" or testing the waters on your own.  XBOX Live is many things to many people.

[QUOTE=steer]9. Games are ROUTINLY hyoped for being counterculture/violent. That is the most important factor to having a game hyped.[/QUOTE]

Once again you generalize.  Games are routinely hyped for many reasons.  Violent games are among them.  Violence is not a requirement.

[QUOTE=steer]10 Many many mamny people are sick to their stoimch by the success of the Wii, because they are not being catered to by Nintendo. Their insercurity, instead of apathy, say, is very telling.[/QUOTE]

As is yours   You see, from where I sit, you don't seem any different than the average system warrior.  Your threat is only from all these other non-Wii games you don't "get".  Your endless harping on an industry that you don't think really "caters" to you is very telling!

[QUOTE=steer]So no, I am not writing of entire games and platforms...I am just saying that the fratboy steryotype is perpetuated and catered to by most of the game media and by several game makers. Game quality may or may not be an issue, that would be a case by case.[/QUOTE]

... and you wouldn't have it any other way.  I mean, what would you talk about?

[QUOTE=steer]I dont know why I have to be the boogie man.[/QUOTE]

Me either.  You can stop being at any time.

[QUOTE=steer]Why would he go that route, unprompted? Obviously he is concerned about game violence as well, he defines himself against it. Clearly he is not going to rush out and buy GTA DS when it launches...[/QUOTE]

Who cares?  He's one game developer out of hundreds.  That doesn't make his concerns mine, nor does it make his concerns ... valid.

[QUOTE=steer]You dont have to like it,[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is right.  I don't have to like it.

[QUOTE=steer]but I am sick of ppl expecting me to apologize or be ashamed of having values. I am not telling what you to do or play, just staing my opinon on a discussion forum.[/QUOTE]

You've come out on this forum before calling for some sort of instrusion into the industry to determine what kind of games are made, even for adults.  If it were just your values, it wouldn't be a big deal.  You want them put on everyone else, without their consent.  You want an implementation of those values.  That's more than just stating your opinion.  Are you saying that your perspective on that has changed?

Have at your opinion.  Don't expect not to be challenged about it.  Part of "expressing your opinion on a forum" includes having others express their opinion of your opinion.

Oltobaz1
Posts: 1605
Joined: December 31st, 1969, 7:00 pm

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby Oltobaz1 » March 2nd, 2009, 6:51 am

[QUOTE=BanjoPickles]Well, Jason, we all have those things that bug us don't we? I guess that, after fourteen years, it gets a little old. It simply comes off like sour grapes. As I've said before, did Nintendo gripe like this when Square went off with Sony? Did Nintendo call into question the amount that Final Fantasy VII would sell on the ps1? No, they didn't.
[/QUOTE]


Actually, Nintendo execs weren't too happy with that. It would take years before a new Square game came out on a Nintendo system.

steer

Sometimes Sony strikes me as absolutely pathetic!

Postby steer » March 2nd, 2009, 8:35 am

Well, foirst off let me start by saying I am not going to do the point by point thing, it is ridiculous and maeks a mess and is no fun to read. To each there own I can make arguments without having to go line by line...

Am I making sweeping generalizatoins?

Yes. Because i am looking at the big picture, and then giving specific examples. That is tried and true debate tactic, and as far as the industry goes, on the whole, the shoe fits, and they wear it proudly.

I do not see why your 'ancedotal evidence' about LIVE trumps mine. I have friends on  LIVE to, and they have had their share of annoyances. Go out on any random message board if you want to find this antisocial game creature, he is not hard to find at all. I am glad I am not on the side who stands up for game culture that is tough work.

Same goes for SPIKE - they target to their base, my friend, and that is an ugly and sad sight to behold. That is the mirror they are holding up to the game community, SPIKE is a hotbed of frat, and the game industy is very comfortable advertising and hosting award shows on that channel. Are you going to tell me they are going for mature, high class, sophisticated ppl there, or what? If you lie down with Robot Chicken, you wake with frat, is that not the old proverb?  So why does that argument fail?

Yes Pajnitov is one dev, I did not say he represented the industry. You seem to think you are 'right' just on the base of your own confidence in your own positions. You are one man also, and can only represent yourself. I am saying there is room for a debate, you view it as me being a boogieman for bringing this up, and arguing my side.

The only reason I talk about this, is that it comes up often. Mariot Guy made a topic, as did Banjo about House of the Dead. I saw a very low quality, chessy movie on World at War and mase a topic about it. Compare that with how the 'professional' media 'genrally' covers such titles as Wii Fit, Wii Music and Wii Sports. Were they objective and unbiased? No. Did they cover it for the experience the developers were aiming for? No, they compared it against there story driven, 'mature' ideal. Big difference in having a discussion, and trying to kill something with their 'influence.' But obviously, they have very little influence outside of a small circle of hardcore followers. That is self evident.

Finally, I call into question your objectivity on game cinema, and this board in general. You tend to get to close to things, with respect, and protect ideas at the expense of facts. For example :

You said House of Dead was aiming for 'realism' with its swearing. No one on the board concurred with that, wether they liked the direction of the game or not.

You said you never noticed slowdown on SNES Zelda, despite having plaed it many times. This I find hard to believe. I just recently finished it on VC, known for its very accurate translation/emulation of its systems, and the slowdown is often and many more times as bad as the origional Zelda, or Zelda 2 for that matter on SNES. I doubt their is a screen on that game where you cannot close slowdown, sometimes with only Link, one enemie, and one bomb on the screen. Go hit a chicken if you do not believe me, you love Zelda too much to be objective.

And I feel you love game cinema too much to be objective.

And I do not have a problem with that, but when you come of that I am way off my rocker criticising game cinema, I do have a problem with that. You can find no end of objective critics of game cinema, and even if you think 1 or 2 are particularilty well done, that does not make up for the 'general' quality of the entire cannon of game cinema. I object to the steryotyping and the explotation of young male teens by the game industry, in general. I am proud to support the positive, quality, alternative games and game makers.

Enough said, for now.


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