Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Talk about music, movies, television, books, and other media. No religious or political discussion allowed.
ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 185
Joined: April 29th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » November 8th, 2018, 2:29 pm

DaHeckIzDat wrote: Seriously? You're actually going to make me repeat everything I've already said earlier in the thread? *sigh* Fine, but let's address your first issue first. No, the speeder was not going slow. Look at any of the shots of it, and it's going pretty dang fast. Maybe there was SOME push back, but if you actually watch the movie you know that it wasn't anywhere close to enough to stop the speeder. And he was, what, twenty feet away when he crashed? Yeah, clearly the last two seconds it would have taken him to get there were the MAGICAL two seconds that would make the entire rest of his ship disappear.

How would it NOT take out the weapon? Imagine driving a truck into a jet turbine. Doesn't matter how big the turbine is or how slow the truck's going, both of them are still going to go boom.


By that logic, the Falcon blew up long ago, and Endor suffered a forest fire. The rebels can also take out any empire ship with their long distance AI guided missiles.

1. Why did shields stop existing in your fanfiction?

2. Why are you arguing for our physics vs. theirs? If you're going to crash into things in Star Wars, you need to be either going really fast, or hitting a weak spot. And sometimes going really fast won't do a thing, as the speeder bikes of Endor demonstrated.

3. Do you do this for all action/fantasy movies, or is this a special service? Because you're looking at an entire genre of absurd physics. Do you think you're the first to question them, or that they objectively make a movie bad?

DaHeckIzDat wrote: Now, for the objectively bad writing (again)...

1. "Your mom" jokes right off the bat.


Which was played as desperation for a brief moment against a bastard child who overreacts to being reminded. Do you think real life Neo Nazis don't react this way? Because there's a world of evidence to the contrary. This isn't a plot hole - it's you underestimating a dangerous enemy, because they're easy to mock.

You should look up how that usually works out.


DaHeckIzDat wrote: 2. Rose. Literally everything about Rose. Take every scene she's in out of the movie, and what do you lose?


Finn thinking about the larger picture. You also lose a valuable lesson about how dangerous the wild plans of the original trilogy really were. If you're going to have a longer series, the odds aren't always going to work out in the hero's favor. Again, your objectively bad writing amounts to subjective complaints, and taking yourself way too seriously. You're also ignoring historical records of real life failure, many of which amount to trusting the wrong people and ignoring local customs.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:What reason did Holdo have to not explain her plan?


The one she magicked up within minutes of taking charge of a bad situation? Tell me, when you're the leader of a desperate band, and you need to worry about deserters, how will you handle someone putting you on the spot the way Poe did?

Especially if you weren't prepared for the possibility by armchair quarterbacking this movie?

What do you think it means, when your leaders tell you to have hope when it seems like there isn't any?

Later, when she finally did have a plan, how did Poe handle it? Tell me why she has to be better than he is, when they're just war heroes without formal officer training? Explain why you think that lack of training won't come back to bite the rebels in the butt?

This is why they need Leia. And Mon Mothma. And everyone else previous used as set decoration while the heroes are off blowing up superweapons.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:And what was her ultimate plan? To run to a barren planet, hole up inside a fort with only one exit and just wait to die. Stupid, stupid, stupid!


It was to find a safe place to lay low, and call reinforcements. Poe ruined that chance. So why are you taking his side again?

DaHeckIzDat wrote:This is the guy who refused to kill the worst mass murderer the galaxy has ever known because


He looked at his hand, and realized he was falling to the darkside. After nearly killing him in order to defend others. In the real world, those instincts won't go away. Star Wars has always prioritized psychology over physics, and there's no reason for them to stop now.

DaHeckIzDat wrote: 5. Leia suddenly getting Force powers. Yes, it was hinted at that she was Force sensitive before, but you can't go from hints some thing like to "survives an explosion plus several minutes of floating in space, and then Mary Poppins-ing her way back to the ship."


She did a weak force pull. And you're questioning her surviving in a space that carries sound, and freezes her without anything for her to transfer her body heat into? A space that allowed her to hang out in a giant space worm's gut without a pressurized suit? You realize that this is supposed to be based on space pulp logic, don't you?


DaHeckIzDat wrote:Why the hell did Luke leave a map to himself if he never wanted to be found?


He didn't. The map's to where they expected to find him. Look it up - you're objectively wrong.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:Let's talk about Snoke. Who was he? How did he come to be so powerful? Where and how did he found the first order?


He's better as a mystery. Those aren't the same as plot holes, no matter how excited you are for them to film an adaptation of Wookiepedia.

Secondly, he's a clear copy of Palpetine. I'm glad we can agree on that. He performed his job, so the story moves on without him, after a demonstration of how the darkside teacher/student relationship works. And why it doesn't pay to abuse those underneath you, no matter how powerful you are.

This isn't a videogame. He's not promised a boss fight. Kylo Ren is showing the rise of a new villain, and that's where the real story is.

DaHeckIzDat wrote: Kylo killing him changed nothing, it just made things go back to the way they were before. Bad, lazy writing.


Nothing changes now that the apprentice must keep the reigns of power? You either don't have much imagination, or didn't really think this through. All of this was to build Kylo Ren into the character we'll meet in the 3rd movie.

Only then, will we know whether this subversion of the hero's journey was worth the trip.

DaHeckIzDat wrote: Btw, if Snoke was so uber mega powerful that he can read Kylo's mind, how is it possible that he didn't know Kylo was about to kill him?


You can't think cover thoughts, and control your emotions? Tell me, why didn't the Emperor see Anakin was about to kill him?


DaHeckIzDat wrote: 9. Luke hologram-ing himself to the final battle... because that's what we all want to see. The big, legendary hero PRETENDING to fight, and then dying anyway. What did he accomplish? Buying people some time?


He demonstrated how powerless military might is against an idea. Against a story. As many other nonviolent resisters have done, successfully, throughout all of recorded history. You wanted him to express the ideals of Christ? The ideals of the Jedi, that they never actually achieved?

This was it. The truest light side victory in the entire franchise. He brought hope to the galaxy.

Something that wouldn't happen if he tried to Gary Stu his way past that many weapons and a dark side user. This isn't "The Force Unleashed." Jedi can and will die quickly if they underestimate the enemy.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:90% of the resistance is dead.Half of it is Holdo's fault, and the other half is Rose's.


Poe's fault. C'mon. You can say it. Poe's the one who got them all killed. His reckless leadership exposed them all.


DaHeckIzDat wrote:Rey is a Mary Sue. She learns complicated Jedi tricks without any training


Like Luke mastering lightsaber duels and force choke? Or like Anakin winning a podrace? Show me where you need to be trained by an organized religion before you can demonstrate any force powers? Begin with "But Luke!" and end with "But Luke!", and ignore the part where he was the worst student Obi Wan and Yoda had ever seen.


DaHeckIzDat wrote:is more powerful than Luke by the end of the second movie


Because she doesn't whine like a 4 year old about lifting things, or because she was disarmed in seconds by him, before he refused to get into a lightsaber duel with her?

DaHeckIzDat wrote:never struggles with anything,


Nope, she just gives into her flight or fight instincts without any struggle at all. And she keeps trusting everyone who abandons or uses her. She's every parole officer's reason for going to work in the morning.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:is immediately let into everyone's inner circles despite barely knowing her,


You may have noticed that things are pretty relaxed without the Jedi counsel around. Everybody's like "Join us!" Just curious - how did you justify Lando leading the attack on the Death Star after betraying the rebels?

DaHeckIzDat wrote: knows more about the Falcon than Han does after being on it a total of five minutes


Her boss owned it. And it's been a running gag that Han doesn't know anything about the ship. Watch Empire. Looks like you're objectively wrong, again.

DaHeckIzDat wrote:and is always right and morally superior to everyone around her.


Already mocked that nonsense earlier. Not my fault if you can't actually think up a counter.


DaHeckIzDat wrote:Those are the issues I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure I can remember even more if I thought about it a little.


I'm sure you'll find plenty. But how many will hold up under any kind of scrutiny?

User avatar
Stalvern
Posts: 777
Joined: June 18th, 2016, 7:15 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Stalvern » November 8th, 2018, 3:53 pm

DaHeckIzDat wrote:

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:


This is insufferable. Arguing about Star Wars is fair game, but you don't have to be so friggin' b*tchy about it.

User avatar
ptdebate
Posts: 968
Joined: April 7th, 2015, 8:39 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ptdebate » November 8th, 2018, 4:22 pm

I was about to have some fun with DHID's points but you beat me to it. The people who disliked TFA were largely apathetic. The most interesting thing about TLJ so far has been how hard people will reach and forego logic and consistency to publicly dislike it - almost like it's a badge of honor - engaging in a level of nitpickiness they would never apply to other films.

If riling people up was the objective, RJ certainly succeeded!

Side note - we should really take a step back and remind ourselves of the actual meaning of "objectively."

User avatar
DaHeckIzDat
Posts: 1058
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » November 8th, 2018, 4:49 pm

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:By that logic, the Falcon blew up long ago, and Endor suffered a forest fire. The rebels can also take out any empire ship with their long distance AI guided missiles.

1. Why did shields stop existing in your fanfiction?

2. Why are you arguing for our physics vs. theirs? If you're going to crash into things in Star Wars, you need to be either going really fast, or hitting a weak spot. And sometimes going really fast won't do a thing, as the speeder bikes of Endor demonstrated.

3. Do you do this for all action/fantasy movies, or is this a special service? Because you're looking at an entire genre of absurd physics. Do you think you're the first to question them, or that they objectively make a movie bad?


1. They didn't stop existing. They stopped mattering when Holdo proved you could overpower a shield by flying a ship into one. Which, you know, Finn just so happened to have. Why are you even assuming that gun was shielded?

2. The fact that you have to invent new physics for Star Wars is everything that's wrong with TLJ's fandom. Instead of letting the director tell the story and letting common sense fill in the gaps, you go "Uhhh, but what if physics are different for absolutely no reason?! Yeah, that would definitely explain it!"

Put in preschool terms: machine go inside bigger machine, both machines make big boom boom.

3. Only ones that are so bad that their good points can't distract me from the flaws. Like the Nostalgia Critic once said, nobody cares that you can see the strings on the original Death Star, the story was exciting enough that you were focused on that. TLJ failed to draw me in, which meant I was more easily distracted by the many, many, MANY flaws it had.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Which was played as desperation for a brief moment against a bastard child who overreacts to being reminded. Do you think real life Neo Nazis don't react this way? Because there's a world of evidence to the contrary. This isn't a plot hole - it's you underestimating a dangerous enemy, because they're easy to mock.

Instead of saying, "Hey look, there's a rebel! You know, those guys we're here to blow up without negotiations? Blow him up!"

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Finn thinking about the larger picture. You also lose a valuable lesson about how dangerous the wild plans of the original trilogy really were. If you're going to have a longer series, the odds aren't always going to work out in the hero's favor. Again, your objectively bad writing amounts to subjective complaints, and taking yourself way too seriously. You're also ignoring historical records of real life failure, many of which amount to trusting the wrong people and ignoring local customs.

I don't care what Finn was thinking, I don't care how real life works, what I care about is that Rian Johnson doesn't know a dadgum thing about storytelling. If you're going to add in a subplot that extends the movie's runtime by over thirty minutes, IT HAS TO FREAKING GO SOMEWHERE! Here's how that scene should have gone:
Finn: "I need to get into that ship."
Rose: "They have fancy new shields, but I know how to hack them because reasons."
Finn: "Cool, let's go do it right now instead of wasting everybody's time with a casino trip that has absolutely no impact on anything."

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:The one she magicked up within minutes of taking charge of a bad situation? Tell me, when you're the leader of a desperate band, and you need to worry about deserters, how will you handle someone putting you on the spot the way Poe did?

You mean the legendary Commander Holdo, who even Poe was amazed to be in the presence of, can't control a frightened crew despite being in a ton of famous battles and winning countless victories for the resistance? You do not leave things like this up to your people's imaginations, because they will always assume the worst, thus making them even more terrified. Even if you don't tell them the truth, you lie to them to put them at ease. You ABSOLUTELY DO NOT tell them "lol imma not tell you nuthin'." That is the absolute stupidest thing any commander could ever possible do.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Later, when she finally did have a plan, how did Poe handle it? Tell me why she has to be better than he is, when they're just war heroes without formal officer training? Explain why you think that lack of training won't come back to bite the rebels in the butt?

She has to be better than him because that's the entire point of her existence, to be better than Poe in every conceivable way. She kicks his butt in combat, has a plan despite stupidly not deciding to share it, we're told she's supposedly smarter than him, and (according to the movie) is the biggest hero in the entire movie. If she's not supposed to be better than him, then stop drilling it into our heads how much better she is than him.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:It was to find a safe place to lay low, and call reinforcements. Poe ruined that chance. So why are you taking his side again?

Because 1. Poe is the reason they're all alive to have that stupid space chase. Remember the dreadnaught that was going to blow up the rebel base from orbit? Yeah, do you think that would have any problems blasting their one cruiser from a mile away? But no, Poe's a bad, bad boy who needs to be put in his place. And 2. Because the first order was already following them when she was given command, so the base on the salt planet was never a safe place, never a good idea, it was a corner she intentionally backed everyone into so they could freaking die there.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:He looked at his hand, and realized he was falling to the darkside. After nearly killing him in order to defend others.

Ohhh, I see. So that's why he just up and decided to kill his nephew based on a three second vision. No wait, I don't see, because that goes against everything he stood for in the first three movies and has no logical explanation besides "the director said so."


ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:She did a weak force pull. And you're questioning her surviving in a space that carries sound, and freezes her without anything for her to transfer her body heat into? A space that allowed her to hang out in a giant space worm's gut without a pressurized suit? You realize that this is supposed to be based on space pulp logic, don't you?

I'm mad because Johnson is introducing new story elements without any logic or explanation just for another weak "plot twist." Suddenly making Leia able to do all that is like making suddenly Frodo a wizard in Lord of the Rings. No explanation, and everyone calls you an idiot for saying so.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:He didn't. The map's to where they expected to find him. Look it up - you're objectively wrong.

Wow, so they had no idea where he was, but they had a map that led to the exact spot on the exact planet he was in, and then threw it away despite the fact that they were looking for him? No, that isn't what happened. That's how RJ tried to cover up one of the biggest plot holes in his godforsaken script.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:He's better as a mystery. Those aren't the same as plot holes, no matter how excited you are for them to film an adaptation of Wookiepedia.

No, he isn't. That's crappy storytelling. Not telling you what's in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction is a good mystery. Building someone up as the ultimate bad guy and then offing him with no explanation is what an idiot does when he wants to "subvert your expectations, durrrr"

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Nothing changes now that the apprentice must keep the reigns of power? You either don't have much imagination, or didn't really think this through. All of this was to build Kylo Ren into the character we'll meet in the 3rd movie.

No, it changes nothing. Snoke was barely in the movies, Kylo had all the spotlight. Kylo was the one giving orders except in a couple specific instances when Snoke hologrammed himself in. Now... Kylo is still front and center, still giving the orders. The only thing that changed is that now Hux doesn't argue with him as much. It has nothing to do with imagination, and everything to do with telling an intelligent and coherent story.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:You can't think cover thoughts, and control your emotions? Tell me, why didn't the Emperor see Anakin was about to kill him?

He wasn't focusing on Vader. He thought Vader was incapacitated and was completely focused on Luke. Snoke was entirely focused on Kylo, digging down into his brain to see his thoughts.

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:He demonstrated how powerless military might is against an idea

While the "powerless" military kills 90% of everyone who was actually there. Brilliant!

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Like Luke mastering lightsaber duels and force choke? Or like Anakin winning a podrace? Show me where you need to be trained by an organized religion before you can demonstrate any force powers? Begin with "But Luke!" and end with "But Luke!", and ignore the part where he was the worst student Obi Wan and Yoda had ever seen.

Luke lost spectacularly to Vader the first time they met. Rey kicked Kylo's butt, then proceeded to kill an entire squadron of the red guards, soldiers who are supposed to rival Boba Fett in terms of skill and toughness. Luke's first Force trick was to block a couple lasers from a training droid. Anakin won a race because he had inhuman reflexes. Rey... did one of the most complicated Force tricks in existence just a few hours after figuring out the Force existed.


Rian Johnson is failing at storytelling 101. Not because the story didn't go the way I wanted, but because nobody acts the way they should, nobody reacts the way real people would in their situations, and the movie constantly contradicts itself but expects you to ignore that and believe what it tells you to believe. It says way more about you when you choose to just accept this bullcrap than it does about me expecting my money's worth when I pay for a movie ticket. I demand stories that make sense with characters who talk and act like real people, not plot devices to push the story where the director wants it to go instead of where it would naturally go-- especially when it comes to huge, genre defining titan franchises like Star Wars. Rian Johnson has no respect for the subject material he's working with. He wanted to put the spotlight on himself by making the most controversial Star Wars ever, regardless of the end product's quality.

User avatar
DaHeckIzDat
Posts: 1058
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » November 8th, 2018, 5:05 pm

ThePixelatedGenocide wrote:Her boss owned it. And it's been a running gag that Han doesn't know anything about the ship. Watch Empire. Looks like you're objectively wrong, again.

She refused to fly it at first because she thought it was junk, despite it being the best ship in the yard, meaning she knew absolutely nothing about it, so don't give me that crap.

[quote="ThePixelatedGenocide"]Already mocked that nonsense earlier. Not my fault if you can't actually think up a counter.
Your mockery holds about as much weight as being called sexist by Kathleen Kennedy, so mock all you want. Doesn't make you right.

[quote="ThePixelatedGenocide"]I'm sure you'll find plenty. But how many will hold up under any kind of scrutiny?
My criticisms hold up perfectly. The problem is that you're making crap to defend this movie. Do you see the problem with that? It's not your job to tell the story, it was Rian Johnson's, but Rian Johnson didn't do a good job of it, so now you have to tell the story yourself to explain away his plot holes. You even went so far as to invent brand new physics for the Star Wars universe just to cover his butt for him. And you know what? That's not a kind of stupidity than can be fixed. I can present all the logic in the universe to you, but you'll still pull more excuses out of your ear to defend it. So I'm done. Enjoy your trashy movie, enjoy the illusion of superiority it gives you, and try not to sprain your think noodle with all the mental contortionism you're putting it through.

ActRaiser
Posts: 622
Joined: April 8th, 2015, 12:38 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ActRaiser » November 8th, 2018, 8:59 pm

One of you is a Russian bot.

Unfortunately, I don't know which one. Is it if you hate the movie you're a Russian bot or if you love it? Either way...it's a freakin' movie. Can we all agree it needs slave Leia to turn the series around?

amiright?

ThePixelatedGenocide
Posts: 185
Joined: April 29th, 2015, 9:06 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ThePixelatedGenocide » November 8th, 2018, 9:33 pm

ptdebate wrote:I was about to have some fun with DHID's points but you beat me to it. The people who disliked TFA were largely apathetic. The most interesting thing about TLJ so far has been how hard people will reach and forego logic and consistency to publicly dislike it - almost like it's a badge of honor - engaging in a level of nitpickiness they would never apply to other films.

If riling people up was the objective, RJ certainly succeeded!


I wonder how much of it is because Star Wars was bordering on religion? I mean, the Jedi faith was many people's first gateway to Eastern spirituality, even if they were mixed with familiar Judeo Christian concepts. The movies also used the most effective propaganda techniques of their time, to tell what seemed to be a simple tale of purest good vs. darkest evil.

And they leaned hard on allowing young boys to imagine themselves as their ideal selves.

Deconstructing those techniques, and including an actual criticism/exploration of fictional faith and morality? Bringing into question which texts are canon?

Minus the usual violence, it's like what happens the first time someone challenges every other faith. Those of a fundamentalist mindset are seemingly incapable of handling the suggestion that Saint Luke Skywalker still thinks bad thoughts - even if those bad thoughts would have saved lives, and Luke almost immediately decided against them. Even if Yoda warned him he'd always struggle with the darkside.

Anyone who suggests he's still struggling to live up to his own legend, has blasphemed. Not that those who object to the movie's portrayal would ever use the word, but they're organizing a boycott, and claiming the spirit of Star Wars has been killed, despite the clear divide in the fandom...which they can't even honestly acknowledge, without the anger turning back on them.

Did you see how ugly the backlash was to Angry Joe admitting he'd made a few mistakes in his early criticism of the movie? He still hates the movie, but his hate wasn't enough. He had to prove his loyalty to the cause.

You just don't see this kind of behavior from Superman fans, despite DC clearly trying to make him into a Christ metaphor on multiple occasions. (And it conflicting with the objectivist subtext Zach Snyder prefers.) Can you imagine Transformer fans behaving this way?

And it's not just Luke - you can see the same fundamentalist mentality with Holdo. They're incapable of dealing with her imperfections, just because she verbally castrated Poe.

It's often been said, that men fear women laughing at them. And women fear being killed by men.

It's an oversimplification - there are many men who can also laugh at themselves in any company, and crime affects everyone.... but many TLJ haters seem threatened by emasculation in the exact same way Paul was, when he ordered women to be silent in church. They're just not so far gone that they'll extend their sense of outrage to all women - just the ones they hold responsible for this unforgivable sin.

Like Kathleen Kennedy, who dared to wear a Nike T-shirt once for a "The force is female" ad campaign, which was simply highlighting the drive of female athletes. How did a bit of wordplay from an old ad slogan become this offensive?

Most of those outraged by all of this, would mock this kind of thin skinned hypersensitivity coming from anywhere else.

IIf nothing else, I hope sociologists are taking notes. There's so much we may learn about our instincts from all of this.

User avatar
DaHeckIzDat
Posts: 1058
Joined: April 9th, 2015, 1:41 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby DaHeckIzDat » November 8th, 2018, 10:49 pm

... This guy. This guy knows he can't defend the movie on a narrative or an intellectual level, so now he's trying to turn it into a religious issue.

ActRaiser
Posts: 622
Joined: April 8th, 2015, 12:38 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby ActRaiser » November 8th, 2018, 11:24 pm

Do we need to lock the thread? Gents, agree to disagree and it call it a day.

User avatar
Rev
Posts: 1427
Joined: April 7th, 2015, 7:31 pm

Re: Star wars the last jedi spoilers ahead.

Postby Rev » November 8th, 2018, 11:28 pm

Okay, so this thread makes me a bit sad. I get discussing a movie but I think most of this thread is bordering on needing to be closed. If you guys disagree with each other, cool, but don't tear each other apart over Star Wars. Only warning, please keep it civil or I'll lock the thread.


Return to “Other Media”